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11-30-2002, 12:17 PM
#91
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: vincennes indiana USA
Posts: 14
RE: Trophy Hunting?
hmm well i think any deer can be a trophy just depends who kills it i got what many people would consider a trophy but there was a little basket following behind it that i would have shot and would have considered it a trophy too because i've never killed a deer i got my monster during bow season then the opening day of shotgun i saw another real nice eight pointer and i was completely not excited by it because i knew i couldn't shot it so i just hoped it went over to my friends stand because he would have killed to get a buck like that but it didn't oh well
11-30-2002, 02:00 PM
#92
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Trophy Hunting?
<font color=red>The states that have antler restrictions have had low doe harvests?????Please explain what type of harvests they have been having then!! If the number of does harvested is very low, this must mean one thing, that too many bucks are being harvested!!! So, an imposed antler restriction is just that---a restricition that limits the hunter to what they can harvest legally!! This is what I have been saying all along!! If hunters do not change their ways, antler restrictions are soon to follow!!! I don't want it to get to a point in my state to where more restrictions are imposed!! Foremost and first of all, for all of the young or inexperienced hunters who need to take smaller bucks for their first kill!!! The last thing I want to do is tell a kid that he/she cannot shoot that buck in front of them because it is too small!!! But again, this thread is about the experienced hunter, not the young and inexperienced hunters!!!!!</font id=red>
Exactly! The states with low doe harvests are being forced into antler restrictions to increase the doe harvest. My question to you was , what about the states who have a good doe harvest , ie Wi has two doe only seasons in addition to bow and gun season. We get a good doe harvest , so do you condemn the "experienced hunter" who shoots young bucks in this scenario?
<font color=red>The warning will be the number of buck sightings all together, getting less and less. Mark my words, sooner or later, just about every state will impose antler restrctions due to this thinking that refuses to be changed.</font id=red>
And my warning to those states who are forcing doe harvests by imposing antler restrictions would be , watch the number of deer sightings get less and less. They (Alt) can give you all the QDM or TBM crap they want. Their only goal is to drastically reduce the entire deer herd numbers by harvesting more does.
<font color=red>I am answering the question, and it is not based on emotion. I never condemned "your area farmers" for anything. I stated that I am far from a stranger to the farming community, and the farmers that I know have never complained about crop damage to a degree to where it will be on the verge of breaking them. I know it, and they know it. Deer do minimal damage to crops, but so do racoons, squirrels, possums, crows, ect. Don't twist my words around.</font id=red>
I dont even know how to respond to that reply. You have certainly ruined your knowlege of the farming community credibility with that statement. Have you ever seen first hand what alot of deer can do to a soybean field? Corn fields dont get quite the damage as a bean field but still enough to pinch your pocket book if it's your bread and butter.
<font color=red>Go ahead and explain to me how the farmers in your area can have sooo much crop damage, when YOU have just got done saying that the area does not hold the deer numbers???? If you are refering to the "farm country" holding more deer and do more damage, I WILL completely disagree with you. Farmers know the game there, just as they do here!! If they do not claim some sort of loss in the name of "crop damage" or "flood damage" or something like that, they will not recieve their insurance, government subsidies, ect.!!!! I know the game well, and so do they!!!
So you can spout off and yell "crop damage" and claim to show me numbers all you want!! I know better!!! I do not blame the farmers for it either!!! They are what this country is based on in my opinion, and DESERVE all of the breaks that they can get!!!</font id=red>
Spout off?? You know better? Sure doesn't sound like it! I've given you logical answers to your questions and in return you bare your teeth and accuse me of "spouting off"?? How I wish the farmers in my area had computers so I could email this page to them. They would get a kick out of your analagy. Especially how they claim crop damage just for the extra money , pathetic! Crop damage subsidies dont cover HALF of the actual crop damage.
And just so you dont think I'm talking in circles. The farm country (my area) has the over population problems. The national forests (where a guy is justified in shooting the first buck he sees) are in northern Wisconsin. It's a mix of not as big of deer population and vast (mile and miles) forest.
I dont have any questions for you , but feel free to number your questions and we'll be glad to answer them again.
Exactly! The states with low doe harvests are being forced into antler restrictions to increase the doe harvest. My question to you was , what about the states who have a good doe harvest , ie Wi has two doe only seasons in addition to bow and gun season. We get a good doe harvest , so do you condemn the "experienced hunter" who shoots young bucks in this scenario?
<font color=red>The warning will be the number of buck sightings all together, getting less and less. Mark my words, sooner or later, just about every state will impose antler restrctions due to this thinking that refuses to be changed.</font id=red>
And my warning to those states who are forcing doe harvests by imposing antler restrictions would be , watch the number of deer sightings get less and less. They (Alt) can give you all the QDM or TBM crap they want. Their only goal is to drastically reduce the entire deer herd numbers by harvesting more does.
<font color=red>I am answering the question, and it is not based on emotion. I never condemned "your area farmers" for anything. I stated that I am far from a stranger to the farming community, and the farmers that I know have never complained about crop damage to a degree to where it will be on the verge of breaking them. I know it, and they know it. Deer do minimal damage to crops, but so do racoons, squirrels, possums, crows, ect. Don't twist my words around.</font id=red>
I dont even know how to respond to that reply. You have certainly ruined your knowlege of the farming community credibility with that statement. Have you ever seen first hand what alot of deer can do to a soybean field? Corn fields dont get quite the damage as a bean field but still enough to pinch your pocket book if it's your bread and butter.
<font color=red>Go ahead and explain to me how the farmers in your area can have sooo much crop damage, when YOU have just got done saying that the area does not hold the deer numbers???? If you are refering to the "farm country" holding more deer and do more damage, I WILL completely disagree with you. Farmers know the game there, just as they do here!! If they do not claim some sort of loss in the name of "crop damage" or "flood damage" or something like that, they will not recieve their insurance, government subsidies, ect.!!!! I know the game well, and so do they!!!
So you can spout off and yell "crop damage" and claim to show me numbers all you want!! I know better!!! I do not blame the farmers for it either!!! They are what this country is based on in my opinion, and DESERVE all of the breaks that they can get!!!</font id=red>
Spout off?? You know better? Sure doesn't sound like it! I've given you logical answers to your questions and in return you bare your teeth and accuse me of "spouting off"?? How I wish the farmers in my area had computers so I could email this page to them. They would get a kick out of your analagy. Especially how they claim crop damage just for the extra money , pathetic! Crop damage subsidies dont cover HALF of the actual crop damage.
And just so you dont think I'm talking in circles. The farm country (my area) has the over population problems. The national forests (where a guy is justified in shooting the first buck he sees) are in northern Wisconsin. It's a mix of not as big of deer population and vast (mile and miles) forest.
I dont have any questions for you , but feel free to number your questions and we'll be glad to answer them again.
11-30-2002, 05:01 PM
#93
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: patten.maine usa
Posts: 147
RE: Trophy Hunting?
I'm just a low life meat hunter.My season ended tonight at sundown and after spending around 80 hours sitting on my butt waiting for a taggable deer to walk by I sit here still holding my tag.I saw three does in this time at the same time so I had a lot of empty hours.
I hunt when I can and I got lucky and was able to get a weeks vacation.Hunting for deer is my passion and I do it all year long through scouting and generally just watching.
Could any of you that promote the passing of all of these insignificant deer spend this much time on stand and keep your focus on a trophy?I bet not for long.I would love to be in your shoes just don't make me wear them cause they are way to big!
I hunt when I can and I got lucky and was able to get a weeks vacation.Hunting for deer is my passion and I do it all year long through scouting and generally just watching.
Could any of you that promote the passing of all of these insignificant deer spend this much time on stand and keep your focus on a trophy?I bet not for long.I would love to be in your shoes just don't make me wear them cause they are way to big!
11-30-2002, 06:26 PM
#94
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: Trophy Hunting?
I am not going to post direct quotes, and then respond to them, rather just touch on a couple and the authors will know which ones are being addressed.
I don`t live in, nor have I ever hunted in Maine. Been there many times, beautiful state! I don`t know what your game laws concerning deer are in maine, but I think that deer populations in maine are not real high. Anyway, nothing wrong with being a meat hunter, I have a deepfreeze full of freshly killed deer meat myself. Mature does, to be exact. 80 hours on stand, that does not even sniff the hours I have on stand this year without dropping the string on a buck. Does`nt bother me a bit. I am not done yet, though. My standards will not go down during the last few days of my hunts this season.
That being said, if you want to shoot small, young bucks, you won`t hear any tirades from me. I won`t buy into any of your theories that it is OK(unless you are a new hunter)but you won`t be verbally attacked.
The arguement put forth by some that it is legal to shot little bucks is lame, it is legal to pierce your nose too, so go ahead and do that while you are at it!
Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!
BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!
Somewhere in this debate it was pointed out that what do you trophy hunters do if you shoot an absolute monster? You cannot go backwards right!
WRONG! If I am fortunate enough to shoot a 180" buck with my bow, I would have no problem shooting a 150" later on if the opportunity presented itself.
I may have misrepresented my stance when I stated that I would only shoot a 140" or bigger buck. That is when I hunt the midwest.
If a 125-130" buck comes past me in PA, or W.Va, I WILL let the air out of him! That is still a pretty respectable buck.
So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.
NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
I don`t live in, nor have I ever hunted in Maine. Been there many times, beautiful state! I don`t know what your game laws concerning deer are in maine, but I think that deer populations in maine are not real high. Anyway, nothing wrong with being a meat hunter, I have a deepfreeze full of freshly killed deer meat myself. Mature does, to be exact. 80 hours on stand, that does not even sniff the hours I have on stand this year without dropping the string on a buck. Does`nt bother me a bit. I am not done yet, though. My standards will not go down during the last few days of my hunts this season.
That being said, if you want to shoot small, young bucks, you won`t hear any tirades from me. I won`t buy into any of your theories that it is OK(unless you are a new hunter)but you won`t be verbally attacked.
The arguement put forth by some that it is legal to shot little bucks is lame, it is legal to pierce your nose too, so go ahead and do that while you are at it!
Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!
BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!
Somewhere in this debate it was pointed out that what do you trophy hunters do if you shoot an absolute monster? You cannot go backwards right!
WRONG! If I am fortunate enough to shoot a 180" buck with my bow, I would have no problem shooting a 150" later on if the opportunity presented itself.
I may have misrepresented my stance when I stated that I would only shoot a 140" or bigger buck. That is when I hunt the midwest.
If a 125-130" buck comes past me in PA, or W.Va, I WILL let the air out of him! That is still a pretty respectable buck.
So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.
NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
11-30-2002, 06:53 PM
#95
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: saint joseph missouri USA
Posts: 548
RE: Trophy Hunting?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Exactly! The states with low doe harvests are being forced into antler restrictions to increase the doe harvest. My question to you was , what about the states who have a good doe harvest , ie Wi has two doe only seasons in addition to bow and gun season. We get a good doe harvest , so do you condemn the "experienced hunter" who shoots young bucks in this scenario?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Well..I guess I will help you answer some of my questions, since you are not.
#1.Why are there antler restrictions?--<font color=green>It is due to a low doe harvest.</font id=green>
#2.Why is there a low doe harvest?--<font color=green>Either of two things---one is the lack of hunting pressure per huntable acreage in the state, or there are too many bucks being harvested, and the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance.</font id=green>
#3.If too many buck are not getting taken(according to you), why is it that some states(like Missouri and Iowa)changing to "Any Sex" tags instead of "Bucks only" tags?--<font color=green>This is the states way of implementing a lower level of QDM by not restricting holders of "bucks only" tags to resort to taking smaller bucks. In earlier times, having "buck only" tags led many hunters to use their tags on the first available legal buck that presented a shot opportunity.</font id=green>
#4.Why don't the states just allow for more doe tags per hunter?--<font color=green>This is what is taking place now to try to control a situation that is fast getting out of hand. Here in Missouri, the archery season starts Oct.1 and runs to mid January. You are allowed 2 tags of either sex, but cannot take more than 1 buck before the November firearms season. You are also able to buy an additional 5 "antlerless only" tags. The rifle season lasts 11 days with a special "unfilled tag" season in December. The November rifle season allows 1 buck with an "any deer" tag, and three additional antlerless deer with "bonus" tags. This tally does not include any does taken on reserve hunts, refuge hunts, ect., that the Missouri Coservation department holds special draws on federal and state land normally closed to hunting.</font id=green>
#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?--<font color=green>It is due to the fact that they can already detect that the over abundance of does/lack of bucks, or an "unbalanced ratio" of the general herd in these areas, is causing a depletion of the herds health, quality, and ability to reproduce healthy offspring. The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring.</font id=green>
#6. How does this relate to places in the state that are open to the hunting of both bucks and does?--<font color=green>It sets up the same scenario, for lack of better words, of an unbalanced ratio in the states herd. If you get too many does in a state, you have to do something to even the ration between the two. This is done by the taking of more does, and the taking of less bucks.</font id=green>
#7.How do states make this happen?--<font color=green>It can be done in several ways, all of which have the same results. Some states issue more tags for does, to try to lean the hunter towards taking more does, instead of making it a law by point restrictions. Others force point restrictions in their state to curb the taking of small bucks, so as to let the younger bucks have a chance to grow to maturity, thus equalling out the herd after a certain amount of time. Some have special "doe only" hunts to help this situation out in a more timely manner before herds get too out of balance. Missouri is one of these states that have recently acknowledged a mistake of having a "doe only" hunt in the early to mid portion of the month of January. This resulted in the taking of too many bucks that had dropped their antlers already, and were mistaken for does. This is also stated in the "2002 Fall Deer and Turkey Hunting Information" guide.</font id=green>
#8.How can we keep a state from imposing restrictions on the size of a buck that we take?--<font color=green>It is called Quality Deer Management, or QDM. This is the practice of a self regulating hunting individual or community, to promote the balance and health of their local herd. It can be practiced on all levels of participation. A couple of the main objectives in doing this are, food plots special to a deers needs, the harvesting of mature female deer, [i]and the selective harvest of young, immature bucks.[i] The end result is a better, healthier, more balanced herd in the area, with most states agreeing to this philosophy more and more everyday.</font id=green>
My answer to the question you presented to me about questioning or condemning someone who takes a small young buck in a state that has really good doe harvests every year is this. You better believe that I would question it, as long as he/she was an experienced hunter!!!!
What you fail to realize is that QDM can work both ways, even though it is unlikely any state will get to that point. If there are too many bucks in an area, and the buck to doe ratio is heavily leaned towards the bucks, then the exact opposite would be needed. It would be then, and only then, necessary to shoot several smaller bucks to even the ratio back to a managable level.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And my warning to those states who are forcing doe harvests by imposing antler restrictions would be , watch the number of deer sightings get less and less. They (Alt) can give you all the QDM or TBM crap they want. Their only goal is to drastically reduce the entire deer herd numbers by harvesting more does.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> And the reason there are more does is this, too many bucks being taken out of the herd. If your statement was true, they would just issue more tags for any sex of deer, period!!! But, this is not the case now, is it?? They want does taken out of the herd only because of one reason, not enough bucks!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I dont even know how to respond to that reply. You have certainly ruined your knowlege of the farming community credibility with that statement. Have you ever seen first hand what alot of deer can do to a soybean field? Corn fields dont get quite the damage as a bean field but still enough to pinch your pocket book if it's your bread and butter.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Yes, I know exactly what a deer herd can do to a bean field!!! The reason this is, is due to the fact that all the while I was growing up, my backyard was a bean field!!! And it is not near as severe as most farmers make it out to be on the paper handed to the government. What the subsidies do not cover, crop insurance does. I know the game well. So, go ahead and print out my responses about this point, and have them give me a call, E-mail, or whatever. You will not get them to waste their time, because they know what I know!! But, God I love them all for what they do!!!! if it wasn't for them, their would be no country as we know it!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And just so you dont think I'm talking in circles. The farm country (my area) has the over population problems. The national forests (where a guy is justified in shooting the first buck he sees) are in northern Wisconsin. It's a mix of not as big of deer population and vast (mile and miles) forest.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Like I said earlier. There are two main reasons why states impose point restrctions---one is what we are arguing now, the other is the lack of hunters needed in a certain area who are able to keep the doe to buck ratio in check.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I dont have any questions for you , but feel free to number your questions and we'll be glad to answer them again.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Well....I would be just satisfied if you answered them period, which you have failed to do.
P.S.----Thanks a million, Big Country!!!!!
Exactly! The states with low doe harvests are being forced into antler restrictions to increase the doe harvest. My question to you was , what about the states who have a good doe harvest , ie Wi has two doe only seasons in addition to bow and gun season. We get a good doe harvest , so do you condemn the "experienced hunter" who shoots young bucks in this scenario?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Well..I guess I will help you answer some of my questions, since you are not.
#1.Why are there antler restrictions?--<font color=green>It is due to a low doe harvest.</font id=green>
#2.Why is there a low doe harvest?--<font color=green>Either of two things---one is the lack of hunting pressure per huntable acreage in the state, or there are too many bucks being harvested, and the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance.</font id=green>
#3.If too many buck are not getting taken(according to you), why is it that some states(like Missouri and Iowa)changing to "Any Sex" tags instead of "Bucks only" tags?--<font color=green>This is the states way of implementing a lower level of QDM by not restricting holders of "bucks only" tags to resort to taking smaller bucks. In earlier times, having "buck only" tags led many hunters to use their tags on the first available legal buck that presented a shot opportunity.</font id=green>
#4.Why don't the states just allow for more doe tags per hunter?--<font color=green>This is what is taking place now to try to control a situation that is fast getting out of hand. Here in Missouri, the archery season starts Oct.1 and runs to mid January. You are allowed 2 tags of either sex, but cannot take more than 1 buck before the November firearms season. You are also able to buy an additional 5 "antlerless only" tags. The rifle season lasts 11 days with a special "unfilled tag" season in December. The November rifle season allows 1 buck with an "any deer" tag, and three additional antlerless deer with "bonus" tags. This tally does not include any does taken on reserve hunts, refuge hunts, ect., that the Missouri Coservation department holds special draws on federal and state land normally closed to hunting.</font id=green>
#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?--<font color=green>It is due to the fact that they can already detect that the over abundance of does/lack of bucks, or an "unbalanced ratio" of the general herd in these areas, is causing a depletion of the herds health, quality, and ability to reproduce healthy offspring. The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring.</font id=green>
#6. How does this relate to places in the state that are open to the hunting of both bucks and does?--<font color=green>It sets up the same scenario, for lack of better words, of an unbalanced ratio in the states herd. If you get too many does in a state, you have to do something to even the ration between the two. This is done by the taking of more does, and the taking of less bucks.</font id=green>
#7.How do states make this happen?--<font color=green>It can be done in several ways, all of which have the same results. Some states issue more tags for does, to try to lean the hunter towards taking more does, instead of making it a law by point restrictions. Others force point restrictions in their state to curb the taking of small bucks, so as to let the younger bucks have a chance to grow to maturity, thus equalling out the herd after a certain amount of time. Some have special "doe only" hunts to help this situation out in a more timely manner before herds get too out of balance. Missouri is one of these states that have recently acknowledged a mistake of having a "doe only" hunt in the early to mid portion of the month of January. This resulted in the taking of too many bucks that had dropped their antlers already, and were mistaken for does. This is also stated in the "2002 Fall Deer and Turkey Hunting Information" guide.</font id=green>
#8.How can we keep a state from imposing restrictions on the size of a buck that we take?--<font color=green>It is called Quality Deer Management, or QDM. This is the practice of a self regulating hunting individual or community, to promote the balance and health of their local herd. It can be practiced on all levels of participation. A couple of the main objectives in doing this are, food plots special to a deers needs, the harvesting of mature female deer, [i]and the selective harvest of young, immature bucks.[i] The end result is a better, healthier, more balanced herd in the area, with most states agreeing to this philosophy more and more everyday.</font id=green>
My answer to the question you presented to me about questioning or condemning someone who takes a small young buck in a state that has really good doe harvests every year is this. You better believe that I would question it, as long as he/she was an experienced hunter!!!!
What you fail to realize is that QDM can work both ways, even though it is unlikely any state will get to that point. If there are too many bucks in an area, and the buck to doe ratio is heavily leaned towards the bucks, then the exact opposite would be needed. It would be then, and only then, necessary to shoot several smaller bucks to even the ratio back to a managable level.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And my warning to those states who are forcing doe harvests by imposing antler restrictions would be , watch the number of deer sightings get less and less. They (Alt) can give you all the QDM or TBM crap they want. Their only goal is to drastically reduce the entire deer herd numbers by harvesting more does.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> And the reason there are more does is this, too many bucks being taken out of the herd. If your statement was true, they would just issue more tags for any sex of deer, period!!! But, this is not the case now, is it?? They want does taken out of the herd only because of one reason, not enough bucks!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I dont even know how to respond to that reply. You have certainly ruined your knowlege of the farming community credibility with that statement. Have you ever seen first hand what alot of deer can do to a soybean field? Corn fields dont get quite the damage as a bean field but still enough to pinch your pocket book if it's your bread and butter.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Yes, I know exactly what a deer herd can do to a bean field!!! The reason this is, is due to the fact that all the while I was growing up, my backyard was a bean field!!! And it is not near as severe as most farmers make it out to be on the paper handed to the government. What the subsidies do not cover, crop insurance does. I know the game well. So, go ahead and print out my responses about this point, and have them give me a call, E-mail, or whatever. You will not get them to waste their time, because they know what I know!! But, God I love them all for what they do!!!! if it wasn't for them, their would be no country as we know it!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>And just so you dont think I'm talking in circles. The farm country (my area) has the over population problems. The national forests (where a guy is justified in shooting the first buck he sees) are in northern Wisconsin. It's a mix of not as big of deer population and vast (mile and miles) forest.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Like I said earlier. There are two main reasons why states impose point restrctions---one is what we are arguing now, the other is the lack of hunters needed in a certain area who are able to keep the doe to buck ratio in check.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I dont have any questions for you , but feel free to number your questions and we'll be glad to answer them again.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Well....I would be just satisfied if you answered them period, which you have failed to do.
P.S.----Thanks a million, Big Country!!!!!
11-30-2002, 06:56 PM
#96
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Trophy Hunting?
<font color=red>Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!</font id=red>
Cheap shot? Hardly! I have an opinion on Gary Alt's plan and it differs from trophy hunters , it was hardly a cheap shot. Alt set forth his plan to entice the trophy hunters by way of a "healthy herd" or "trophy herd" which he knew all trophy hunters would bow at his knees. What you dont realize is he has a totally different agenda than you and the rest of the trophy hunters he enticed with his plan. You want big bucks , he wants to eliminate the majority of the deer herd period! Wait a few years , then we'll talk.
<font color=red>BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!</font id=red>
I'm not sure how I caught you?? My comment was regarding wolfen68's post.
Gee , I'll tell you what , since you cant find the time to read all the posts to see where the question was answered intelligently , why dont you number your questions and I'll do my best to answer them. Or was that just a shot at my intelligence??
<font color=red>So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.</font id=red>
LMAO!! An ego thing? The trophy hunter is asking the hunter if it's an ego thing?
Bad herd management? Kinda depends on the state of your current deer herd doesn't it? For those areas that are in dire need of management , would it be kosher with you if all experienced hunters harvested two does before harvesting a young buck? It's all about the health of the herd right?
Cheap shot? Hardly! I have an opinion on Gary Alt's plan and it differs from trophy hunters , it was hardly a cheap shot. Alt set forth his plan to entice the trophy hunters by way of a "healthy herd" or "trophy herd" which he knew all trophy hunters would bow at his knees. What you dont realize is he has a totally different agenda than you and the rest of the trophy hunters he enticed with his plan. You want big bucks , he wants to eliminate the majority of the deer herd period! Wait a few years , then we'll talk.
<font color=red>BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!</font id=red>
I'm not sure how I caught you?? My comment was regarding wolfen68's post.
Gee , I'll tell you what , since you cant find the time to read all the posts to see where the question was answered intelligently , why dont you number your questions and I'll do my best to answer them. Or was that just a shot at my intelligence??
<font color=red>So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.</font id=red>
LMAO!! An ego thing? The trophy hunter is asking the hunter if it's an ego thing?
Bad herd management? Kinda depends on the state of your current deer herd doesn't it? For those areas that are in dire need of management , would it be kosher with you if all experienced hunters harvested two does before harvesting a young buck? It's all about the health of the herd right?
11-30-2002, 07:27 PM
#97
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Trophy Hunting?
Nice try Richie!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> And you whine about others trying to make you appear foolish<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> The questions you have numbered have already been answered and some were covered already without you asking.
#1.Antler restrictions in order to increase doe harvest! Already covered that!
#2.Who knows the exact reason why hunters in those areas weren't harvesting more does. Is it truely because the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance? NO WAY! It's a herd reduction tactic!
#3."If too many bucks are not getting taken , according to me"? Where did I say that too many bucks weren't getting taken or were getting taken? I said that my area has a very good buck to doe ratio with a generous doe harvest every season.
#4.Why dont the states just allow more doe tags per hunter? Well , I dont recall you asking me before. Wisconsin is very generous in doe tags and doe only seasons.
#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?-- An obvious answer would be a buck to doe ratio thats way out of wack.
You said: "The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring." That I'd like to see![sarcasm]
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
#6,#7,#8 Once again , if your state has a herd balance thats way out of wack , like too many does -vs- bucks , then it is important to harvest does , but your preaching to everyone everywhere , right?
Answer me one question.
If an experienced hunter shoots two or three does before harvesting a young buck , is that o.k.? Afterall , he would be practicing QDM!
#1.Antler restrictions in order to increase doe harvest! Already covered that!
#2.Who knows the exact reason why hunters in those areas weren't harvesting more does. Is it truely because the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance? NO WAY! It's a herd reduction tactic!
#3."If too many bucks are not getting taken , according to me"? Where did I say that too many bucks weren't getting taken or were getting taken? I said that my area has a very good buck to doe ratio with a generous doe harvest every season.
#4.Why dont the states just allow more doe tags per hunter? Well , I dont recall you asking me before. Wisconsin is very generous in doe tags and doe only seasons.
#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?-- An obvious answer would be a buck to doe ratio thats way out of wack.
You said: "The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring." That I'd like to see![sarcasm]
<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
#6,#7,#8 Once again , if your state has a herd balance thats way out of wack , like too many does -vs- bucks , then it is important to harvest does , but your preaching to everyone everywhere , right?
Answer me one question.
If an experienced hunter shoots two or three does before harvesting a young buck , is that o.k.? Afterall , he would be practicing QDM!
11-30-2002, 07:50 PM
#98
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: Trophy Hunting?
#1 It was not a shot at your intelligence.
#2 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!
I'm not sure how I caught you?? My comment was regarding wolfen68's post.
Gee , I'll tell you what , since you cant find the time to read all the posts to see where the question was answered intelligently , why dont you number your questions and I'll do my best to answer them. Or was that just a shot at my intelligence??
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
UM? <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last year I did ask one question, that I have yet to see a legitimate answer to.
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possibly WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
I forgot to add this....BOWDACIOUS, you did the right thing bud. If, and when hunting for only big bucks turns into no fun for me, I will do whatever it takes(within the law) to bring the fun back into it!
NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
Edited by - Big Country on 11/29/2002 20:56:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your question was answered several times! In fact , you answered your own question with your reply to BOWDACIOUS.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Sure seems like you were talking to me? And, FWIW, I may not retain 100% of every post, but I have read them all.
#3 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.
LMAO!! An ego thing? The trophy hunter is asking the hunter if it's an ego thing?
Bad herd management? Kinda depends on the state of your current deer herd doesn't it? For those areas that are in dire need of management , would it be kosher with you if all experienced hunters harvested two does before harvesting a young buck? It's all about the health of the herd right?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Harvest two does then a young buck? You are half way there.
And the trophy hunter is not the one that obviously needs to prove he can kill! You are correct about one thing, it would depend upon the condition of the herd at present. By shooting whatever you desire, with no regard to herd management, you have two types of herds.
1. A herd that is unbalanced, thus unhealthy.
2. A herd that is headed that way in a hurry.
#4 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!
Cheap shot? Hardly! I have an opinion on Gary Alt's plan and it differs from trophy hunters , it was hardly a cheap shot. Alt set forth his plan to entice the trophy hunters by way of a "healthy herd" or "trophy herd" which he knew all trophy hunters would bow at his knees. What you dont realize is he has a totally different agenda than you and the rest of the trophy hunters he enticed with his plan. You want big bucks , he wants to eliminate the majority of the deer herd period! Wait a few years , then we'll talk.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Thank you for knowing what I think better than I do, myself!
FYI, I have a pretty good idea what Alt has in mind, and I don`t have a problem with it at all. The majority of hunters in PA don`t have a problem with it at all. Our herd needs to be CUT IN HALF. When I was a young boy, our herd was half of its present size, and there were deer everywhere. Now there are two deer everywhere.
15 years ago, in the farm country of SW PA, you would never see a spike, seldom see a 1.5 year old buck with less than 6 points. Now it is just like in the mountains of PA, spikes everywhere, deer eating shrubs in every yard. Way too many deer.
And, while I personally prefer to hunt only big bucks, I am willing to do what is best for the health and future of our herd. Unlike the selfish ones who want to shoot whatever they want, whenever they want, "cause thats what my granpappy did!"
By the way....still no answer to #3!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
#2 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> BOWFANATIC, you caught me! Good for you. I was trying to be polite and civil with bodacious regarding his regressing back to shooting small bucks again. I feel 100% safe in saying that it will not happen to me. Other than that, I don`t see where the question was answered intelligently!
I'm not sure how I caught you?? My comment was regarding wolfen68's post.
Gee , I'll tell you what , since you cant find the time to read all the posts to see where the question was answered intelligently , why dont you number your questions and I'll do my best to answer them. Or was that just a shot at my intelligence??
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
UM? <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last year I did ask one question, that I have yet to see a legitimate answer to.
If you are a full grown man, with several smaller bucks under your belt, why would you possibly WANT to shoot smaller bucks?
I forgot to add this....BOWDACIOUS, you did the right thing bud. If, and when hunting for only big bucks turns into no fun for me, I will do whatever it takes(within the law) to bring the fun back into it!
NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
Edited by - Big Country on 11/29/2002 20:56:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your question was answered several times! In fact , you answered your own question with your reply to BOWDACIOUS.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Sure seems like you were talking to me? And, FWIW, I may not retain 100% of every post, but I have read them all.
#3 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> So, what is the reason that a veteran bowhunter would continue to shoot immature bucks? Is it an ego thing? I think it is, because I have been there before. And even the staunchest of supporters of the shoot whatever you want crowd cannot deny with a straight face that it is bad herd management.
LMAO!! An ego thing? The trophy hunter is asking the hunter if it's an ego thing?
Bad herd management? Kinda depends on the state of your current deer herd doesn't it? For those areas that are in dire need of management , would it be kosher with you if all experienced hunters harvested two does before harvesting a young buck? It's all about the health of the herd right?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Harvest two does then a young buck? You are half way there.
And the trophy hunter is not the one that obviously needs to prove he can kill! You are correct about one thing, it would depend upon the condition of the herd at present. By shooting whatever you desire, with no regard to herd management, you have two types of herds.
1. A herd that is unbalanced, thus unhealthy.
2. A herd that is headed that way in a hurry.
#4 <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Taking cheap shots at Gary Alt is lame, try living in Pennsylvania and see firsthand the mindset of the majority of our hunters for over 40 years. Alt is our chance for a healthy herd. I will agree that his plan needs some refinement, but many parts of the state are absolutely overrun with deer!
Cheap shot? Hardly! I have an opinion on Gary Alt's plan and it differs from trophy hunters , it was hardly a cheap shot. Alt set forth his plan to entice the trophy hunters by way of a "healthy herd" or "trophy herd" which he knew all trophy hunters would bow at his knees. What you dont realize is he has a totally different agenda than you and the rest of the trophy hunters he enticed with his plan. You want big bucks , he wants to eliminate the majority of the deer herd period! Wait a few years , then we'll talk.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>Thank you for knowing what I think better than I do, myself!
FYI, I have a pretty good idea what Alt has in mind, and I don`t have a problem with it at all. The majority of hunters in PA don`t have a problem with it at all. Our herd needs to be CUT IN HALF. When I was a young boy, our herd was half of its present size, and there were deer everywhere. Now there are two deer everywhere.
15 years ago, in the farm country of SW PA, you would never see a spike, seldom see a 1.5 year old buck with less than 6 points. Now it is just like in the mountains of PA, spikes everywhere, deer eating shrubs in every yard. Way too many deer.
And, while I personally prefer to hunt only big bucks, I am willing to do what is best for the health and future of our herd. Unlike the selfish ones who want to shoot whatever they want, whenever they want, "cause thats what my granpappy did!"
By the way....still no answer to #3!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
NRA,UBP,BASS Member
New Stanton,PA
12-01-2002, 06:14 AM
#99
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: saint joseph missouri USA
Posts: 548
RE: Trophy Hunting?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
#1.Antler restrictions in order to increase doe harvest! Already covered that!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why. </font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#2.Who knows the exact reason why hunters in those areas weren't harvesting more does. Is it truely because the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance? NO WAY! It's a herd reduction tactic!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue>This one is funny!!! How can you reduce the number of a given population, by taking more of one sex of deer than the other?? The reason? Because their is too many of one sex more than there is of the other. The reason? The shooting of too many small bucks and not letting them reach maturity, in turn , leaves the ratio way out of balance. If all they wanted to do is reduce the herd size, they would make it open season(more buck and doe tags) on all deer instead of just does.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#3."If too many bucks are not getting taken , according to me"? Where did I say that too many bucks weren't getting taken or were getting taken? I said that my area has a very good buck to doe ratio with a generous doe harvest every season.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=green> "Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"
"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."
"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."
"If your into small racks, good for you."</font id=green><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue>It is painfully obvious that you do not think that there are too many bucks being harvested, otherwise, you would not be in favor of shooting small, young bucks at all. By the way, about the one quote blaming TBM for the lack of seeing trophy bucks, if TBM were in place, you would see a dramatic increase in trophy bucks, due to the fact that the younger bucks would have a chance to reach full maturity. And also about that quote that was asked and never answered---Why not help your chances, improve your odds, of seeing that "rare mystical creature"? It does work, for me and for others at literally no cost to the pocketbook.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#4.Why dont the states just allow more doe tags per hunter? Well , I dont recall you asking me before. Wisconsin is very generous in doe tags and doe only seasons.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, I know, I was just using this question to help others understand the my side of the argument. But, you can believe it is not for only "herd reduction".</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?-- An obvious answer would be a buck to doe ratio thats way out of wack.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Why is that? It is because of the surrounding areas harvesting too many young, small bucks. Leaving the remaining does in the immediate vicinity to seek refuge in the protected area. This is not so much my quote as it is my belief from hearing it. It was an exact account from a Missouri Department of Conservation officer, when asked how can a balance be so out of whack when there is no hunting on a given piece of protected property.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You said: "The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring." That I'd like to see![sarcasm]<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, I can see where this can be easily misread. But the intent is still the same. The lack of bucks in an area will promote the remaining bucks to inbreed between a does and her female offspring, and so on, and so on, due to the fact that there is not enough competition between bucks for the right to breed.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#6,#7,#8 Once again , if your state has a herd balance thats way out of wack , like too many does -vs- bucks , then it is important to harvest does , but your preaching to everyone everywhere , right?
Answer me one question.
If an experienced hunter shoots two or three does before harvesting a young buck , is that o.k.? Afterall , he would be practicing QDM!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.</font id=blue>
It is all very simple and very easy to do. And the best part is that it can be done for the cost of nothing to the individual. The problem lies in getting the old "if it's brown, it's down" mentality out of the way. I am working my butt of trying to get my father out of it, and he is understanding it more and more, each and every time we see a buck get bigger and bigger each season. Literally watching it grow, breed, and pass on its genetics to the next generation. Even he admits to seeing several more large bucks than we used to just 4 years ago, in the same area. And that is a huge step coming from someone who was just lucky to see a deer at all when he was my age, let alone a good trophy whitetail, proving the fact that the state is right on when it changed its mind about a "quality herd" instead of a herd with "quantity".
Bowfanatic,
Just E-mail me your mailing address, and I will be more than happy to send a "2002 Fall Deer and Turkey Hunting Information" booklet to you. They are free, and it has said the exact same things that I am saying here. And Missouri's herd is getting better and better in quality hunts for everyone. Which is what I want for everyone. But there is still a very long way to go.
This debate has been a great time!!!!
Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 07:22:12
#1.Antler restrictions in order to increase doe harvest! Already covered that!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, but you think it is for a different reason. Having more does taken in the name of "herd reduction" doesn't make sense. The next answer will explain why. </font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#2.Who knows the exact reason why hunters in those areas weren't harvesting more does. Is it truely because the buck to doe ratio is way out of balance? NO WAY! It's a herd reduction tactic!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue>This one is funny!!! How can you reduce the number of a given population, by taking more of one sex of deer than the other?? The reason? Because their is too many of one sex more than there is of the other. The reason? The shooting of too many small bucks and not letting them reach maturity, in turn , leaves the ratio way out of balance. If all they wanted to do is reduce the herd size, they would make it open season(more buck and doe tags) on all deer instead of just does.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#3."If too many bucks are not getting taken , according to me"? Where did I say that too many bucks weren't getting taken or were getting taken? I said that my area has a very good buck to doe ratio with a generous doe harvest every season.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, according to you. You must believe that their are not too many small bucks being taken. Here are some of your exact quotes.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><font color=green> "Do you think their wrong for shooting the first legal buck that comes by"
"There are alot of us "regular ole plain vanilla brown it's down kinda guys."
"Some hunters are perfectly happy harvesting mediocre bucks while hoping someday, that huge trophy buck (you know, that rare mystical creature, the one you can't see every time you go out, due to TBM) will come by."
"If your into small racks, good for you."</font id=green><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue>It is painfully obvious that you do not think that there are too many bucks being harvested, otherwise, you would not be in favor of shooting small, young bucks at all. By the way, about the one quote blaming TBM for the lack of seeing trophy bucks, if TBM were in place, you would see a dramatic increase in trophy bucks, due to the fact that the younger bucks would have a chance to reach full maturity. And also about that quote that was asked and never answered---Why not help your chances, improve your odds, of seeing that "rare mystical creature"? It does work, for me and for others at literally no cost to the pocketbook.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#4.Why dont the states just allow more doe tags per hunter? Well , I dont recall you asking me before. Wisconsin is very generous in doe tags and doe only seasons.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, I know, I was just using this question to help others understand the my side of the argument. But, you can believe it is not for only "herd reduction".</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#5.Why do they have special hunts on these areas?-- An obvious answer would be a buck to doe ratio thats way out of wack.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Why is that? It is because of the surrounding areas harvesting too many young, small bucks. Leaving the remaining does in the immediate vicinity to seek refuge in the protected area. This is not so much my quote as it is my belief from hearing it. It was an exact account from a Missouri Department of Conservation officer, when asked how can a balance be so out of whack when there is no hunting on a given piece of protected property.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You said: "The lack of bucks in this area will promote inbreeding between a doe and her female offspring." That I'd like to see![sarcasm]<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Yes, I can see where this can be easily misread. But the intent is still the same. The lack of bucks in an area will promote the remaining bucks to inbreed between a does and her female offspring, and so on, and so on, due to the fact that there is not enough competition between bucks for the right to breed.</font id=blue>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>#6,#7,#8 Once again , if your state has a herd balance thats way out of wack , like too many does -vs- bucks , then it is important to harvest does , but your preaching to everyone everywhere , right?
Answer me one question.
If an experienced hunter shoots two or three does before harvesting a young buck , is that o.k.? Afterall , he would be practicing QDM!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=blue> Well... That is a good step in the right direction, but still not the desired results. The key in this is to let small, immature bucks pass, culling out the old bucks who haven't generated any quality traits, and maintaining an equal balance of the buck to doe ratio by harvesting a sizable amount of does until the ratio is balanced and kept in check.</font id=blue>
It is all very simple and very easy to do. And the best part is that it can be done for the cost of nothing to the individual. The problem lies in getting the old "if it's brown, it's down" mentality out of the way. I am working my butt of trying to get my father out of it, and he is understanding it more and more, each and every time we see a buck get bigger and bigger each season. Literally watching it grow, breed, and pass on its genetics to the next generation. Even he admits to seeing several more large bucks than we used to just 4 years ago, in the same area. And that is a huge step coming from someone who was just lucky to see a deer at all when he was my age, let alone a good trophy whitetail, proving the fact that the state is right on when it changed its mind about a "quality herd" instead of a herd with "quantity".
Bowfanatic,
Just E-mail me your mailing address, and I will be more than happy to send a "2002 Fall Deer and Turkey Hunting Information" booklet to you. They are free, and it has said the exact same things that I am saying here. And Missouri's herd is getting better and better in quality hunts for everyone. Which is what I want for everyone. But there is still a very long way to go.
This debate has been a great time!!!!
Edited by - richie3 on 12/01/2002 07:22:12
12-01-2002, 06:48 AM
#100
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: patten.maine usa
Posts: 147
RE: Trophy Hunting?
Here in Maine the Dept. Of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife relies quite heavily on the income from license fees.We probably have between 28-32000 deer shot per season which lasts from October to the middle of December.This is a month for Bows and guns and a couple of weeks for ML.We probably have 200,000 license holders.
I am just guessing on these numbers but I would think that no more than 5% of the kill could be classified as tropy animals.Does and young bucks make up the rest.We have to apply for a doe permit(I didn't get lucky)and some people in certain areas get two permits.
If we turned our hunting season into a lottery for the does and a
trophy only for experienced hunters (5 yrs) where do you think our revenues would go? Where do you think our license fees would go?
80 hours on stand probably isn't much for some of you.I would bet that you let a lot walk by.I let none walk by for the second year in a row.
Your promotion is fine for States that can boast a deer population in the millions,it just doesn't fit where I live.In southern Maine densities are much higher and such a program may be beneficial.
Most people are not dedicated to hunting like I think most of us are. I fear that a trophy only approach would have a very negative effect on our revenues,our sport, and only fuel the anti hunting fire.In fact I would be willing to bet that if you made hunting so that it was out of reach for the average Joe,and I don't mean finacially,hunting would be lost.
I am just guessing on these numbers but I would think that no more than 5% of the kill could be classified as tropy animals.Does and young bucks make up the rest.We have to apply for a doe permit(I didn't get lucky)and some people in certain areas get two permits.
If we turned our hunting season into a lottery for the does and a
trophy only for experienced hunters (5 yrs) where do you think our revenues would go? Where do you think our license fees would go?
80 hours on stand probably isn't much for some of you.I would bet that you let a lot walk by.I let none walk by for the second year in a row.
Your promotion is fine for States that can boast a deer population in the millions,it just doesn't fit where I live.In southern Maine densities are much higher and such a program may be beneficial.
Most people are not dedicated to hunting like I think most of us are. I fear that a trophy only approach would have a very negative effect on our revenues,our sport, and only fuel the anti hunting fire.In fact I would be willing to bet that if you made hunting so that it was out of reach for the average Joe,and I don't mean finacially,hunting would be lost.