The greatest QDM thread ever....
#31
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
ORIGINAL: Sylvan
It seems inconsistent to me to argue that natures way is not selective and then propose a highly selective hunting strategy to more closely "resemble the natural world". If we wanted to get closer to your view of the "natural world" the herd would be better off if each hunter would adopt the if it's brown it's down philosophy. If everybody just shot the first deer they saw it would much more closely approximate a random kill than a stategy that very selelectively targets mature buck and females. Said another way, a strategy that selectively protects male deer with small antlers.
I disagree with your premise in the first place though. I don't believe natures way is random. I believe it is highly selective. Natural predators seek out the easiest to kill. The weak the sick and the young are usually the first to fall. The big mature bucks are the lowest on the predators target list. So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks over the imature bucks and femalesis bass ackwords!
Now if your goal is simply to improve the probability that a hunter will get the opportunity to kill a mature buck then I think you've got a winner.
It seems inconsistent to me to argue that natures way is not selective and then propose a highly selective hunting strategy to more closely "resemble the natural world". If we wanted to get closer to your view of the "natural world" the herd would be better off if each hunter would adopt the if it's brown it's down philosophy. If everybody just shot the first deer they saw it would much more closely approximate a random kill than a stategy that very selelectively targets mature buck and females. Said another way, a strategy that selectively protects male deer with small antlers.
I disagree with your premise in the first place though. I don't believe natures way is random. I believe it is highly selective. Natural predators seek out the easiest to kill. The weak the sick and the young are usually the first to fall. The big mature bucks are the lowest on the predators target list. So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks over the imature bucks and femalesis bass ackwords!
Now if your goal is simply to improve the probability that a hunter will get the opportunity to kill a mature buck then I think you've got a winner.
I'm sorry to say that this is a myth. I thought the same thing for a long time, until I saw it with my own two eyes. I find a lot of wolf kills each year and there are just as many mature bucks as there are does and fawns. Wolves can kill a full grown moose,a mature buck is no match.
Where did I say that we should target mature bucks over does? You're right, I didn't.
The idea is to let the mature bucks do most of the breeding. This can only be achieved when the buck to doe ratio is relatively close. Now I know someone is going to say that we should be shooting the younger bucks so that the mature ones can breed. Please refrain, you only show your naiveness. If the buck to doe ratio was in check the younger bucks have almost zero chance of breeding the does. The more mature bucks would, and do, kick thier arse and prevent them from doing so.
Please remember, we are talking about QDM and not QAM. It's not about antler size, its about the quality of the herd.
#32
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
ORIGINAL: drhntr178
The idea behind shooting does older than 1 1/2 stems from the fact that you will shoot less buck fawns.
Germ, the fawns that you want to start over withwere born from the older does therefore they have the same genes.
The idea behind shooting does older than 1 1/2 stems from the fact that you will shoot less buck fawns.
Germ, the fawns that you want to start over withwere born from the older does therefore they have the same genes.
A guy who runs a ranch on Oklahoma did this, he bought some land was really over populted. He did this to get his herd back to normal. The easy way would have been to "buy some genes", but he came up with this practice. Not something you pratice every year. He did so until he had a healthy herd again.
Just another way to look a herd management.
#33
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
Let me make one more point about the isolated herd that I am talking about. Most of the bucks have no potential to grow a monster rack. Every year I see lots of 4.5+ yr old bucks that will never amount to anything other than a 100-120" eight point. But, they are the ones who have survived the harsh winters and the predators and have genetically grown the larger bodies. These are the deer (no matter the size of the rack) that are going to be and should be doing the breeding.
I'll say it one last time! We're talking about QDM and not QAM.
I'll say it one last time! We're talking about QDM and not QAM.
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
I'm sorry to say that this is a myth. I thought the same thing for a long time, until I saw it with my own two eyes. I find a lot of wolf kills each year and there are just as many mature bucks as there are does and fawns. Wolves can kill a full grown moose,a mature buck is no match.
Where did I say that we should target mature bucks over does? You're right, I didn't.
#35
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
Sylvan,
You would shoot does to get back to where the herd should be or would be if we hadn't had bad management practices in the past. Once it is back in balance, then your point is correct.
You would shoot does to get back to where the herd should be or would be if we hadn't had bad management practices in the past. Once it is back in balance, then your point is correct.
#36
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
"If the buck to doe ratio was in check the younger bucks have almost zero chance of breeding the does." -Dan
I have seen numerous studies that show that is incorrect. The 1.5 year olds breed almost every doe. Now almost every doe has twins and almost every time these twins are from different fathers. The mature bucks will breed the does as well, however, the young ones get their shot too. It is like elk in that way. The herd bull will breed almost all of his cows, but the satellites get in there and breed when the big boy isn't looking or is busy elsewhere.
I have seen numerous studies that show that is incorrect. The 1.5 year olds breed almost every doe. Now almost every doe has twins and almost every time these twins are from different fathers. The mature bucks will breed the does as well, however, the young ones get their shot too. It is like elk in that way. The herd bull will breed almost all of his cows, but the satellites get in there and breed when the big boy isn't looking or is busy elsewhere.
#37
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
ORIGINAL: Sylvan
So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks over the imature bucks and femalesis bass ackwords!
So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks over the imature bucks and femalesis bass ackwords!
Sylvan, its pretty black and white. If you want to be one of the few who want to argue with every post of this nature, then go ahead. But at least READ what I am saying.
p.s. I will not turn this into a pissing contest. I have seen it with my own eyes and am giving you my findings. As soon as you you the same, instead of having an idea or a theory, we can discuss this on common ground.
#38
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
Dan,
I appoligize! ... what I meant to say was
it was a typo.Sorry about that. I didn't go back and check what I typed, I justassumed I said it correctly. My fingers didn't put down what was in my head. The point remains the same though. You are proposing a selective strategy.
I'm not arguing your perception that natures way is not selective. I don't agree but I'm not arguing the point. My point is again...
I appoligize! ... what I meant to say was
So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks and females over the imature bucksis bass ackwords!
I have seen it with my own eyes and am giving you my findings.
"It seems inconsistent to me to argue that natures way is not selective and then propose a highly selective hunting strategy to more closely "resemble the natural world". What you propose is selective. You want to target mature buck and females. Isn't that right?
#39
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
ORIGINAL: Sylvan
Dan,
I appoligize! ... what I meant to say was
it was a typo.Sorry about that. My fingers didn't put down what was in my head. The point remains the same though. You are proposing a selective strategy.
Dan,
I appoligize! ... what I meant to say was
So it seems to me if your goal is to more closely "resemble the natural world" then proposing a strategy that targets the mature bucks and females over the imature bucksis bass ackwords!
Please explain to me why you think its bass ackwards.
I don't belive so.
Take a look at all the agriculture and supplemental feeding there is. In the natural world, the mature bucks have a much greater chance of dying after the rut is over. In today's world, this does not happen nearly as much as it probably should because of the abundance of man made/grown food for them to regain their fat supplies before winter. In addition, the winters are nowhere near what they used to be.
#40
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: The greatest QDM thread ever....
Please explain to me why you think its bass ackwards.