Killer_Primate

I'm sure that you are all very good hunters, with very good ethics, but there is a problem with this type of post, at least in this location. There is no real useful information here. And before you reply, hear me out. If this were a conversation between known friends, it wouldn't be so dynamic, but... I'm sure that all of your stories are credible, but we are on the internet, and talking about hunting. A subject that many different people, with many different personality types are passionate about. They are either passionate about doing it, or stopping it.

I know a few hunters in my town, who can't hunt. In fact, if they had to in order to survive, they would no longer be with us. But these guys always have a good story. It is either about "super buck" who does some pretty crazy and creative stuff to get away, and no other hunter would have been successful either, thus being the reason they haven't gotten a good buck, because all the ones they see are this amazing. Or, they were able to get off a shot, but something didn't work out. Oh yeah, I remember, it is "the void". And they all love to talk about it. It is also my opinion that the people that I’m referring to, haven’t been able to even take a shot, they just need a good story as to why they don’t have this monster that they’re telling you about. “The void” is a great way to accomplish this.

SB,
This is in no way directed at you. Even though, we have disagreed in the past, I know you are a good and ethical hunter. We just seem to have a disagreement about firearms and different ways to hunt. That's all, and here is where I'm going with this - since you don't know these people (on the internet), and there is a possibility that some are just like the guys in my town that I described, and even if they’re not, they weren't there to see the shot, and no matter what they say... there will always be some doubt in your mind. Therefore, this post didn't accomplish anything, except! Providing statistics on at least one hunter to the anti's. They now know how long you've hunted, how many deer you've killed, and that you've now shot one and not retrieved it. And I'm not suggesting that you did anything wrong, its just that posting it here, didn't help you in anyway. You still aren’t sure about the future of the deer or “the void”.
Want to know about a void - next deer you shoot, take your time and dismantle it. Cut its ribs off before you gut it if you like. Look at "the void" and decide if it is possible for yourself. Have an arrow with you and hold it while you inspect all the different angles. I've done this, and it is my opinion that it does not exist, at least not if the direction of the arrow were in a downward angle, hit below the spin, and correct windage (not too far left or right) for the lungs.

VA5326,
How can you not count the number of deer that you've seen this happen to? What do you do for a living? Are you a guide for new hunters? Not that it has to happen to a new hunter, but to have so many. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I've been hunting for a long time and have never seen it happen. But there are a lot of things I haven't seen. I just can't imagine how you could witness something so many times that I've never seen, and hope that I don't. I've only lost one deer in my life. And the reason that I lost it is because of a dispute between leased hunting land and private land. The hunt club guys were mad that they couldn't hunt our land, but we did provide written permission to track, but no firearms, was the only stipulation while tracking. They were caught hunting, and told to leave. They then tried to fool me into thinking that the written permission that I wrote meant that they could "hunt". I then educated them in a nice way, explained what it meant and asked them to leave. But when my deer went on their land, "Nope, sorry, if it were there we would have found it".

In industry there is a shared view of safety and accidents. It is, for an accident to take place, one of two things exists. They are - an unsafe act, or an unsafe condition. I like to think of wounded deer the same way. If a deer is shot and not retrieved there is a reason, and I don't think it is the mystical "void", magic, snake oil, health tonic or so on. The hunter either took a bad shot, one that he either was not skilled enough to take, or weren't ready to take at the moment for whatever reason, or there was an unforeseen, like an unnoticed limb in the way. Either way, it is the responsibility of the hunter to make certain that the shot is in fact a good one, right? I mean that is a pretty good way to describe or define ethics I would think. But accidents happen, I know that, and I will share this with you - I shot at a deer and missed with my bow this year. I hit a very small limb, and was very surprised at how much deflection there was. I'm just lucky I didn't hit it, but it was my fault that I did miss, it was my fault that I took an irresponsible shot, and I learned a lot from it.

WindWalker7,
If the lungssimply hung down during an exhale and created some empty cavity, and raised up into this empty void during inhale, why would the chest rise and fall? What would fill the void duringthe exhale when the lungs were collapsed?Something has to fill it, it isn't justempty space. Even if it were air, but where would the air in this cavity go when the deer inhaled and filled its lungs,taking up the previousempty space? I guess the only logical answer would be that it would have to leave the body, or exhale, but wait, the deer was inhaling, or was it exhaling?Maybe they have a blow hole like a dolphin, but it isn’t connected to lungs, just the void. No filter, just air and particulate, pollen, dirt, dust or whatever else, entering and exiting the void, so that the lungs have a cavity for them to work in. No, there is no void, just like you don’t have a void in yourchest, you have a diaphragmand so do the deer. Exhale, lungs empty, chest gets smaller. Inhale,lungs fill, chest gets bigger.
The fact is, the deer more often than not, go off and die when the shot for whatever reason doesn’t have enough terminal energy. I agree that there can be little or no blood on the ground, but that is what happens.
Of course some survive, but then again, some people do to when they’re shot. And a few live the rest of their lives with bullets in them, but no "void".
My post is not meant to be confrontational, I'm just trying to look out for our best interest.
Respectfully,
KP

HNI_Christine

Simply, there is no 'void' in the chest of a deer.There is a pleural 'cavity' but it's notbig enough on a healthy deer to squeeze a broadhead through.

On the other hand there are all sorts of places you can put an arrow into a deer and not kill it.

The spine lies much farther down that most people realize. Most so called void/no man's land hits are above the spine. The arrow hits the bony spinous processes and transverse processes of the vertebrae and that's why the arrow fails to completely pass through the deer.

The shape of a deer's chest cavity means that an arrow that manages to slide in right under the deer's spine will hit lung. The dorsal aorta lies under the spine too.

I think these aresome goodpictures showing just how low the spine dips.
(The farther forward, the lower the spine) The arrow is embedded in the spine.

MOTOWNHONKEY

Atta girl.

hardcorehunter

Please elaborate on this post; I am lost????

Windwalker7

If lungs take in air, wouldn't that mean they inflate? My line of thinking would assume that lungs enlarge slightly as they fill with air. As you exhale, I'd also assume that they deflate and get slightly smaller.

I'm no doctor so I'm not sure what happens to air in the "void"

I remember a photo in a book. I believe it was John Trouts book on tracking deer ( Not for certain), where they removed the lungs and some guy had his mouth on the wind pipe and blew into the lungs inflating the lungs for the photo.

Anyone have that book?

All I know is we tracked that deer most of the day, that night and the following day. I was young and wanted that deer bad. Mostly went by tracks and upturnd leaves.

By the way, I think your post was confrontational.

This is where I saw the arrow on that deer I shot. I don't think the lungs are situated that high.

Rob/PA Bowyer

I concur with these two quotes.

I absolutley do not believe in a "void" area other than, behind the lungs and over the liver/under the spine, it's a very small area but you are still going to damage the diaphram. NO ONE, I repeat, no one can offer up a photograph showing a void. All anatomy photographs I have seen prove the lungs push up against the backbone.

I've cleaned a few whitetails in my 25 years of bowhunting, I never once remember feeling a pocket over the lungs, in contrast, the lungs are always up against, even on a animal on it's side, hung up or turned on it's back.

Two examples:

http://home.mn.rr.com/deerfever/Anatomy.html

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=21358

If you send a broadhead high just under the lungs, you will catch at least one lung on said animal. (One lung, I cannot tell you right of left, is larger than the other) I will not believe otherwise. Do I think this kills the animal....NO, not every time. In the book I have read on "Blood Tracking For Finding Wounded Animals" by John Jeanenney there are pictures of healthy animals that were taken by bowhunting on an Island in NY. They then did autopsy's on the animals and there were cases where there were lungs with scar tissue on them. I firmly believe you can damage a lung and not deflate it, or cut enough blood vessels to cause bleed out or hemorraging which is what's necessary for a broadhead to "Kill".

Broadheads kill by hemorraging, even in the lungs which usually causes them to deflate, or the deer to drown in it's own blood etc....etc...

You cannot slide a 3 blade broadhead under the spine and not catch the lungs, unless your forward or back of the lungs. A two blade, perhaps but the odds are tremendously against this. Don't forget as well, the major artery that runs along the spine and the spinal cord itself.

Like was said, I am a firm believer that many people don't know the antomy of the game they are chasing or what the so called "void" area is by examples set already here within this thread.

As you go up and back on the lungs the blood vessels reduce, the majority of the oxygen carried into and from the lungs are from the middle forward, but again, can you send a broadhead through the lungs and not deflate them. Yes I believe that is possible. Can you send one through without hemorraging the animal to death, yes, I believe that is possible becuase I believe to many hunters don't use brand new blades or blades that are not as sharp as they should be. I believe there are bowhunters who take shortcuts and then say they hit a void area because they either did not do things right for the shot or after the shot.

I've hit animals in this area people assume is a void area. I know that I had to catch the top lobes of the lungs but I did not damage them enough to cause the death of the animal. If you want to call that the void area, you go right ahead but I believe you are spreading a myth and an excuse for the next guy. Some deer will die, some will not and I use GregH's photo for an example. We all look at that photo in disbelief but I for one say hey, whitetails are amazing, they are survivalist.

Raxxmaster

Windwalker, if you use your spot on your deer and put it on the photo of the anatomy that Rob just linked, the second one, it shows that your red dot hits the top of the lungs or bottom of the spine. Like he said, perhaps that's the case. I don't believe in the void either but I too believe the lungs can be damaged and not destroyed. Just my 2 cents.

Rob/PA Bowyer

That's what it looks like to me as well, OR, the arrow deflected from the spine, not breaking it or the spinal cord and deflected forward nicking one lung, the animal can survive.

The photo's in the book by John Jeanenney show pretty good scares on the lungs, almost centered. I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it.

Windwalker7

I just know that this is where I hit. The bow was a Bear Whitetail shooting about 50lbs. The arrow did not do a complete pass through.

I remember watching the deer trot away and I could hear the alluminum arrow hitting twigs and brush. I was young and very excited but I remember it pretty well. Maybe I did catch one lung and it wasn'y lethal. I just know we tracked it quite a ways. Found just enough blood to know we were on the right trail. The deer was using it's senses and taking deer trails. We followed a long way and possibly jumped it the following day. I wanted that deer bad so I didn't give up easy.

I just know that when I gut a deer, the chest cavity inside the ribcage has alot of space in there. The lungs don't fill it all up. There's always a lot of blood and clots in there sloshing around. Just seems like a lot of empty space in there. And when I consider gravity pulling the lungs down towards the bottom of the chest cavity, I think there is an air pocket there. Maybe I'm wrong.

I guess a veterinarian could answer this.

Rob/PA Bowyer

Not unless they have a MRI of a standing animal, specifically the whitetail.

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=21358

I think that is about as good example and there can be without having a Xray/MRI but wouldn't you think that's where this one came from?