MichaelT.

I have been reading this thread and want to ask a few questions. I am not taking sides, but rather trying to place things into a proper perspective.......................

Why is it that if you disagree with someone else's thought processes, you are enlightened, but if someone disagrees with your thought processes, they are blind and closed-minded?????


High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.
High Fence does not equal canned.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself.... and it very well may not, but it is a lot closer to it than no fence hunting.

At 15 I would hope you learn to do your homework before you develope an opinion about anything. In only 3 years you will be voting. Do us all a favor and turn the tv off, write the candidates and ask them the questions of interest to you (some of this can be obtained on the net, but usually not the really hot topics). Take note of their prepared responses and vote responsibly.

I must ask, who are you to say that this young man has not done his homework? Just because he disagrees with you does not mean he is wrong. Go back to the top and re-read my first statement. I doubt you know this young man personally. So your supposition that he is watching tv, is insulting to him, especially since his post was well written, worded, and thought out. He sounds quite intelligent to me. But I understand, he was disagreeing with you. Go back and re-read my first statement at the top.


When a species is in trouble of becoming extinct, how do we save it? Put the remaining species survivors in zoos? Wrong - never worked and never will. Decide to hunt and eat them and pay for the privilege - BINGO! That works.


And all this time I thought that the Government powers that be, placed the animals on the endangered species list, making it illegal to posess or hunt them. And after a period of time their numbers recover. I never knew there were high fence operations for eagles and certain owls and the such. WOW! I need to go see those operations. I wonder how high those fences are?


"Innocense" only exists in a world free of evil and corruption. I'm pretty sure Outdoorlover speakswith "inexperience"


I beg to differ. Innocense exists in the heart and soul of anyone who chooses to not partake in, nor be influenced by, the evil and corrupt of the world. A grown man can know of the evil and corruptness of a prostitute, but unless he lays with one, hewill die innocent of that same evil. He will never feel it's effects.


“Wrong,
innocense exists in every person at their beginning and is only incrementally taken awy by a corrupt world and I think it's obvious that outdoorslover still has some of his—thankfully”
Wrong again,
At fifteen, he surly knows evil and corruption exists. I won’t deny he’s trying to resurrect his innocence, but by doing so, he turns a blind eye to reality. That’s inexperience! I wish we could live in an ideal world void of all things wrong.


First, At 15, why must he know of evil and corruption? When I was in college, I had a roommate that was a fine Christian young man, and he was pure as the driven snow, and as innocent as a baby. This was an 18 year old. I guess someone forgot to tell him he was supposed to take "evil and corruption 101" in high school. And why must he be trying to resurrect anything? Again, who says he has lost his innocense?? I think we have already established the fact that you do not know him. Don't ever assume anything, cause you know what happens when you assume.........


So then you have no ethical or moral argument but have decided that what is right or wrong regarding this topic is simply what is the most popular position. If enough people hollar loud enough that they want something banned then that in your words makes the argument valid and the ban should go in to law. Will you remember that if peta finally convinces the majority that bow hunting is ethically wrong and should be banned? Or hunting from a tree stand or with a rifle or just hunting in general?

Fortunately we live in a country where law is based (or at least is supposed to be based) on principle rather than simply being the result of a popularity contest. IMO, in principle, the killing of animals that goes on in high fence hunting is on the same moral and ethical plane as other kinds of legal killing and I've previously given my reasoning. The fact that it is only a minority that does it is irrelevant. Again, in this country we protect the rights of the minority or at least we're supposed to.


I can understand, to some extent, sylvan's point here. But then I come back to a general thought.*** Just because something is legal, does not necessarily make it right. And we, as a human race, have proven that in the past and continue to do so today.

For instance: Abortion is legal, but is it right? Not allowing women to vote was legal, but was it right? Slavery was legal, but was it right? In some places prostitution is legal, but is it right?

Our human race is dynamic. That means we have the ability to use our minds to think and reason a complex idea to a logical end. Sometimes it takes longer to reach that end. Sometimes it comes quickly. But it is because of that ability, that we can exist and learn from our mistakes.


Is there anything we can say or do to change your mind? Show you a bill of sale perhaps? Can we provide you with DNR regulations to the effect that all indigenous wildlife must be removed priorto installation of non-indigenous wildlife? What if the property is certified "indigenous free" by a representative of "we the people" at the landowners expense?Would that suffice? Would animals sold byour DNRs (it happens)carry the classification of"non-indigenous"?

Yep JJ, teaching a blind man the color purple.


Why do you feel the need to change other peoples minds, when you are not willing to change your mind for others?? Why is it all take and no give. You may not agree with him, but thatdoes not make him wrong. I will interject my own thoughts here : If there was no profit to be made by selling hunts on these big game, exotic, or trophy enclosures, would they still exist?? Would they continue to operate strictly within the idea of protecting and increasing a dwindeling herds numbers?? And , as a side note: What makes the killing of a genetically engineered "trophy" animal so special?? If it is all about the animals and rebuilding their numbers, why would antler size matter?? And if it was all about the animals, and their well being, why would the Game Farms charge different amounts for the taking of a doe, a management buck, and a trophy animal??? And why would you not just go there and shoot a doe and go home??? And if it is not about the trophy, why would someone go home from an exotic hunt empty handed??


Now, my only point in posting all of this is because I got tired of seeing people put down and called closed - minded, while the persons saying it kept insisting they were right. But if you are not willing to look at, or listen to other perspectives, aren't you guilty of the same closed - mindedness?? And don't be so judgemental towards the youth of the world. I have met many that are more intelligent than most adults, and some of the time it is only because they don't talk as much.

Like the saying goes, It is often better to keep your mouth shut and have people wonder if you are an idiot, than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt.


Good hunting gentlemen and God Bless.

iamyourhuckleberry

So does SCI JJ. They havedrawns theirlines, as Hillbilly would put it. For your review:

June 1, 2006 - The North American Hunting Preserves Fair Chase Standards Are Outlined

Recreational hunting and the concept of “fair chase” has been linked for as long as recreational hunting has existed. However, the terms and conditions of what constitutes “fair chase” when hunting is conducted within a high fenced area has never been fully or clearly defined.
SCI believes that the following conditions must be met, or exceeded, in order for the concept of “fair chase” to apply for hunting mammals within high fenced areas in North America:
• The animals hunted must have freely resided on the property on which they are being hunted for at least six months, or longer.
• The hunting property shall provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the property.
• The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.
• The operators of the preserve must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times.
• Animals that are to be hunted must exhibit their natural flight/survival instincts.
• No zoo animals, exhibited animals or tame animals are to be hunted.
• No hunting or selling of hunting rights to a specified animal.
• Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing animals to awaiting hunters.
• Every effort must be made to utilize all meat commonly consumed from a taken animal.
The minimum amount of land necessary to meet these requirements varies by region, terrain and habitat type. Setting a standard minimum area is unlikely to be realistic. However, SCI recommends that state/provincial wildlife management agencies work with the operators and the hunting community within their area to establish specific regulations to guide the operation of hunting preserves.

Oh HillBilly is going to be fighting a whole mess of folks-both in the USA and internationally. Here's a list of the corporate supports of SCI (to name a few):


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Yamaha is known the world over for both their off-road and on-road vehicles. And are now a corporate sponsor of SCI’s television series, “Expedition Safari.”
Visit http://www.yamaha-outdoors.com.



Mossy Oak is the outdoor industry leader in modern camouflage design, international licensing, and marketing and is a corporate sponsor of SCI’s new, exciting television series, “Expedition Safari.”
Visit http://www.mossyoak.com.




Cabela's provides hunting accessories and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.cabelas.com



Beretta is a world-renowned firearms manufacturer and an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.berettausa.com/




Boyt Harness Company and Bob Allen provide SCI-licensed products.
Visit http://www.boytharness.com



Swarovski Optik provides hunting and outdoor accessories and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.swarovskioptik.com/




Southern Comfort Conversions Vehicle Company provides SCI members with custom quality vehicles at a fabulous “member only” pricing! And is an SCI corporate licensee.
Visit http://www.scomfort.com



MedJet Assist provides travel membership assistance and emergency evacuation and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.medjetassist.com




LimbSaver provides firearms and archery accessories and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.limbsaver.com



Top of the line sport and recreational optics and sponsor of the SCI TV Show Expedition Safari.
Visit http://www.bsaoptics.com.




Bob Allen Sportswear provides hunting accessories and apparel, and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.boytharness.com



Smith and Wesson provides firearms, firearms accessories, knives and personal security utilties, and is an SCI corporate Licensee.
Visit http://www.smith-wesson.com




Blaser provides firearms and firearms accessories, and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.blaser.de



Dakota Arms provides high-quality rifles and shotguns, and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.dakotaarms.com




Hornady provides firearms accessories and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.hornady.com



Benelli provides firearms and firearms accessories, and is an SCI corporate licensee.
Visit http://www.benelliusa.com




Thompson/Center Arms is proud to offer the finest selection of American Made firearms and accessories. Accuracy, Reliability, Craftsmanship and Value are what we deliver to make the most of any adventure.
Take your best shot with Thompson/Center, AMERICA'S MASTER GUNMAKER.
Visit http://www.tcarms.com.



Russell Moccasin provides custom fitted, handmade hunting boots and shoes, and is an SCI Corporate Licensee.
Visit http://www.russellmoccasin.com.




An Official Sponsor of the Torino 2006 Olympic Winter Games and Official Hospitality Package Sponsor of the 2006 U.S. Olympic Team and is an SCI corporate sponsor.
Visit http://www.jetsetsports.com.



Serving the Import / Export community with Air & Ocean Shipping, Customs Clearance, Warehousing & Distribution throughout the U.S. and is an SCI Corporate Partner.
Visit http://www.faunaandflora.com/trophies.




Makers of top quality adult precision airguns and sponsor of the SCI TV Show Expedition Safari
Visit http://www.gamousa.com.





Sportsman's Insurance provides Gun Floater Insurance.
N. US Hwy 1, Suite 500,
Ormond Beach, FL 32174
(800) 925-7767


Lechner & Stauffer provides Trophy Replacement Insurance.
John Kauffman
589 Main Street PO Box 26
Pennsburg, PA 18073-0026
(215) 679-9568



How much does a Landowner in Ohio pay for his deer? If the deer belong to all of us, where's my share of this man's license fee. I've calculated it out-1/6billionth of nothing is exactly nothing. That's so unfair! I'll live.

MichaelT,

Guilty as charged! Thank you for the input.

Our human race is dynamic. That means we have the ability to use our minds to think and reason a complex idea to a logical end. Sometimes it takes longer to reach that end. Sometimes it comes quickly. But it is because of that ability, that we can exist and learn from our mistakes.

Yes, these places would still exist. I think you knew that answer.

When you're ready to see those aviaries let me know. We have them here in Colorado.

I've gone home with does.

I've come home with nothing because I could not find anything to harvest.

Hunt and let hunt

fetzeriiif

I personally do not see the thrill in hunting enclosed animals. I change the channel when I see a high fence in the background of a hunting show. It seems kind of like shooting cows out to pasture. I do not, though, see why I should care if someone else enjoys it and wants to do it.

I occasionally hunt over bait. Many people feel that baiting is not hunting.It is their right to believe that, but not their right to tell me not to do it. While I to believe that it is a greater accomplishment tokill an animalover a trail, etc, I sometimes enjoy being able to hunt in spots in which I see more deer. This seems very simmilar to me.

Why should I care if someone that shoots a deer in an enclosed area considers it to be a trophy. It in no way effects me or takes away frommy "trophies". (I still might chuckle a little under my breath when they showed me the pictures.)

Why does everyone always have to condemn everything that is done differently than the way they do it. While I agree that it is simmilar to hunting raised cows, that shouldn't be a reason to make it illegal. Farmers are allowed to kill their cows how ever they want, as long as they don't neglect them or torture them. If someone wants to charge people to humainly hunt their raised deer, then so be it.

I don't see this as a moral or ethical question.Even though one was shot in the wild and one in a pen, both animals end up the same way, dead. The only real issue is that one is easier than the other. So what, if you think it's to easy then don't do it. I wont do it, but thats just the way I feel.

So once again, while I have no interest in doing it and may not understand it, I realize it is not my right to condemn it.

On the other hand........I don't understand why some of the people have listed hogs escaping into the wild as a pro of high fence ranches. Aren't those evasive species that do tons of damage and compete with and sometimes out competethe natural wild life.

The only legitamite reason for dis-allowing these enclosures would be if it were proven that they were the cause of the spreading and introduction of CWD and other diseases. So far I have only seen studies that say it may have beena factor, none that have proven that they were the cause.

iamyourhuckleberry

If there was no profit to be made by selling hunts on these big game, exotic, or trophy enclosures, would they still exist?? Would they continue to operate strictly within the idea of protecting and increasing a dwindling herd’s numbers??

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-06-trophy-ranches_x.htm

Many of the folks mentioned in the above link (money “is not an issue” types- Ted Turner) are protecting what they have with high fence. Yep, they’re trying their very best to keep the wolves at bay. That’s something they can do that's legal.

Here’s another perfect example, which many times is over looked-our military bases. They are numerous and scatter across this great nation. They are vast in size and many are encompassed behind, yep, you guessed it, “high fence”. The federal government really didn’t care what indigenous species of animal became trapped when they erected fence. Like other places on this planet, the wildlife behind this fence needs to be managed. The government usually does this with the assistance of a “base biologist”. Troopers are allowed to hunt while off duty and of course restricted/unrestricted to base. No money involved whatsoever. It’s certainly not as “tamed” as many make it out to be.

If I understand the philosophy as presented, the guys that engage in this actively (our solders hunting on our vast military bases), like myself, are immoral, unethical and of course slobs. In my opinion, it would be immoral and unethical to let this valuable asset waste away because we weren’t there to manage it.

If a guy like me (an avid hunter who likes to be “out there”) wishes to extend his normal hunting season, which is controlled by the government, into the private sector, then why can’t I? Why do I need to be told by an “innocent” 15 year old, who lacks my same experience(s),that I’munreal?

It is not so much that I’m trying to change someone’s mind. I am, however, making every effort to show there is “a time and a place” for everything. My basis for comparison comes many times from first hand experience.

I still have not seen a single photograph with a gun pressed to someone’s head…

ABarOfSoap

geez, i dident think this post would end up being a bigger debate than voting on election day.

outdoorslover

Once again I did not have the time to look at the forum for a while and was amazed at the responses and arguments. I did not mean to condemn high fence hunters by my comments. I am aChristian and don't ''condemn'' anyone. At times I may come across that way, but I truly don't mean any harm. I share my views and defend them just like anyone else.

There seems to be a large discussion about my "inexperience" in canned hunts. With all due respect, I do not have to TRY drugs in order to know that they are wrong or harmful. Do not ever say that something must be tried in order to know it is are wrong. I do not mean to compare the two, because I know that the one is much worse than the other, butI am making a point. Some things are not meant for me and feel wrong. Furthermore, I have much hunting experience. I hunt at least 40 days a year and learned all that I know by myself. You talk so fervently about my judging of others. I do not feel that I have judged you more than you have me.


I am not interested in African game. I will say this again. Lets talk about game in the United States. Look at the Bald Eagle, wild turkey, and many, many more animals which I don't have time to list. They have all been saved through careful conservation. This is the way that game animals are supposed to be saved. You must save the wild habitat. Putting them in a fence and coddling them and then charging money to hunt them because it is neccesary to "save the species" is NOT the correct way. I am only talking American species. The wild buffalo which you threw atus was destroyed because there were no wildlife managers, i.e. the DNR to protect them. In America, animals can be saved by these people, but they need your money. You should not throw money to some false idea of conservation because you think it is saving the species. Hunting deer in a fence is positively not helping the species in any manner. Most anycanned huntyou seeis not ethical or sporting. The few that are in some way are an exception. Are you saying that all or some aresporting? I've seen hundreds that aren't.This is what I base all of my comments on.

You be the expert on exotic animals and what it takes to save them. If you think raising animals in a pen is the only way to preserve them, then so be it. You live your life the way you want and don't condemn ME for having my own thoughts. I don't appreciate your derogatory coments about me jumping into hasty conclusions due to my lack of experience. Now my age is the problem. Would you talk to me like this ifI hadn't ever told you my age?
People never respect me because I'm young. I'll tell you something. I've devoted my life to hunting. It's what I live and dream about. Finally, a forum isa place for discussion and sharing. That's all I have done thus far.I could be just as angry for your views but I'm not.

I don't have time to ramble, because I have a life and know my views and don't have to prove myself. Thank you for the excellent discussion. Best of luck to you and God Bless.

JeremiahJohnson

Sir, I realize you're 15 and you believe you are being disrespected because you are young, but you really need to step back and realize there are people who know more than you do. I know that's difficult for a teenager (I have one), but there are people who have experienced things, been to college, worked in more than one occupation, hunted decades more than you and in more states and countries than you. Rather than being defensive, you might listen and learn something.

Will and I have offered data point after data point. Article after article of supporting data. No one seems to point out any data to the contrary, just that their opinion isvalid and they're upset because their opinion is not valued or accepted as valid. We've made the point that fair chase can happen behind fences - it does happen behind fences. We've offered proof that species are preserved and reintroduced into the wild due to fenced operations - it's not my opinion or Will's opinion, it's fact. If you don't want to read the data or accept the facts, that's your option, people do it every day.

I'll give you one more piece of scientifically gathered data by a reputable and widely accepted study group and then I'm out. I'll quote for you from Southeast Deer Study Group who recently met in Baton Rouge, Louisiana (you can read a summary of the meeting and their findings in the 2006 Whitetail Special of Bowhunter Magazine:

"...the home range for 35 bucks that were 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 years of age was 526 acres. The home range for 6 1/2 year-old bucks was 346 acres. Researchers also showed that there was 61-percent overlap in home ranges of bucks from age 2 1/2 years to 7 1/2 years. So, the home ranges of bucks will change from year to year, but not much. The second finding was especially interesting. Deer have a core home range defined as the area deer spend 50 percent of their time. For bucks over 3 1/2 years of age, the core home range was only 45-55 acres. Obviously, the core home range includes bedding and feeding areas, and finding those areas will greatly increase the odds of finding that buck you've been after."

Translation - an enclosure of 1000 acres or more may well have deer that have never even seen a fence. When deer evade hunters (human or otherwise) they do not run straightline. The article goes on to talk about thick cover and deer circuitously go from thick cover to thick cover when pushed and seldom leave their home range. So, if you're really having a hard time finding that big buck that has paterned you and you can't find him - guess what - he's still there, but you can't find him because he's smarter than you and you're on his turf. That's the data. That's the truth. You can have what ever opinion you want, but free-ranging deer don't behave the way you may think.

drs1961

Complicated subject. Is sitting beside the only water hole formany miles during a dry spell a canned hunt? Every animal in the areaWILL come to water. Is the only rocky outcrop with a herd of mountain goats living on it on an otherwise forested mountain range a canned hunt? They never leave that open exposed area. All you need to do is be within shooting range at daylight and you will get a shot opportunity. Isabrushy draw connecting woodlots in open country during the rut a canned hunt? If you are there, youWILL see bucks. An out of sightcorner of a soybean field that extends down towards a thicket will have deer in it every evening right before dark. Does that make it a canned hunt? No one would say yes because the animals are free range. But would the same situations inside a fence be considered canned? There are many enclosures that are undeniably canned.But not all of them. A thousand acres of fenced prairie is not going to conceal any large animals. A thousand acres of fenced southern swamp or mesquite brush will harbor animals that will live under heavy hunting pressure and die of old age. It is all situation and species specific and hunting pressure. Tame deer, whether they are inside a fence or on a national park, are tame deer. How challenging is it to hunt for them? Not much. Wild deer with adequate cover and acreage inside a fence or out is a challenge. Other big game likewise. Elk in sparse western mountains would require tens of thousands of acres to be able to stay elusive. Wild boar on the other hand could easily stay hidden for life in fifty acres of fenced thick swamp. A fence can be used as a management tool that does not increase hunt success or it can be used as a shooting pen. One needs to look at the specific situation beforethey categorize all fences as canned hunts.