Metal vs Carbon
04-01-2006, 05:16 AM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 460
Metal vs Carbon
Looking for advice on arrows. I shoot a 2216 AL arrow now and it has worked good for me with a 125G muzzy broadhead. I get alot of feedback from other bow hunters to try and go to a carbon arrow because they are so much better than metal. I know they fly faster because of weight, but they must have less energy for the same reason.
Any opinions are appreciated!
Any opinions are appreciated!
04-01-2006, 06:52 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Pesonally I wouldn't go to carbon for the gain in speed and I wouldn't shy away from them because of the loss of energy. For me these differencesjust aren't large enough to be significant.I switched to carbonsimply because of their durability. Iused to do aLOT of shooting (still shoot a fair amount) and I've found the carbons hold up much better. They are a bit pricywhen compared to aluminum inthe straightness category though. I've also foundsome cheaper carbons are much more variable in axial spine andI can tell you for certain that it is significant enough to hurt if you are into competition. I guess you have to weigh what's important to you. Like I said, durability is big for me. I can be pretty rough on arrows. I still do a fair amount of rabbit hunting in the winter months and I wind up ruining a lot less carbon arrows than I did when I was using aluminum.
04-01-2006, 08:11 AM
#3
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Here we go again. Yer gonna get both opinions on this one. Some say carbon is the best, some say aluminum is the best. And they are both right. Aluminum has been around a while, so we know it works. But apparently with the carbon craze, so do they.
In most cases, the tolerances on aluminum are tighter than on carbon. The spine is more consistent. My biggest problem with aluminum is they get kinked and bend easily. That's not to say carbon doesn't break, they do. You can shoot the spine out of a carbon and render it useless, even though to look at it, everything appears fine. Carbons are generally smaller diameter assisting in penetration. Aluminum does tend to weigh more, but they make some pretty heavy carbons nowadays too.
Back in the day, you needed the heavier arrow. But with todays bows, you generate so much speed and KE anyway that it doesn't matter as much. I say "as much" because it still matters, but chances are good you'll get a passthrough with either coming off of todays bows.
As you can tell, there are pros and cons to each. Now, if you just can't make up your mind, get both and shoot A/C/C..
In most cases, the tolerances on aluminum are tighter than on carbon. The spine is more consistent. My biggest problem with aluminum is they get kinked and bend easily. That's not to say carbon doesn't break, they do. You can shoot the spine out of a carbon and render it useless, even though to look at it, everything appears fine. Carbons are generally smaller diameter assisting in penetration. Aluminum does tend to weigh more, but they make some pretty heavy carbons nowadays too.
Back in the day, you needed the heavier arrow. But with todays bows, you generate so much speed and KE anyway that it doesn't matter as much. I say "as much" because it still matters, but chances are good you'll get a passthrough with either coming off of todays bows.
As you can tell, there are pros and cons to each. Now, if you just can't make up your mind, get both and shoot A/C/C..
04-01-2006, 08:25 AM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Actually, you won't see much difference in durability between a heavier aluminum shaft, like the 2216, and carbon. 2216 is my all time favorite aluminum arrow, durable and versatile.I've cratered a bunch of them over the years, but there have been just as many instances where they have amazed me by surviving a horrendous hit.
I've shot carbons quite a bit though, for 3Donly. My draw length is so long that I have to use a full length shaft to make arrows, and the ends of carbon arrows are almost always crooked. So, I never could get a broadhead to fly properly with the grade carbon I can afford.
Anyway, I have noticed that a hit that would destroy a 2216 will also destroy a carbon arrow. In fact, I've had quite a few mystery breaks where the carbon arrow didn't hit anything but target andstill snapped in half. Not to mention many that have developed cracks in the endsof the shaft.
Factor inthat carbons wear out and their spine degrades with use. They don't all wear out at the same rate though, so you wind up shooting arrows with various spines and that plays havoc with accuracy. I've seen many a guy sweating and cursing at the range, working hard in a futile effortto tune his bow, when all he needed to do was buy fresh arrows.
So, all in all, I'd actually give 2216's anedgefor durabilitybecause a dozen of them lasts longer than any of thedozens of carbons I've bought. Add in the fact that I never have trouble getting broadheads to fly well with aluminum arrows and have nevergotten carbon to shoot broadheads at all; that aluminums are much more consistent in spine and weight; that aluminum is simply a better shaft, overall than carbon...
As far as I'm concerned, there is only one reason for youto make the change... speed.If you intend to shoot 3D, then yeah, it makes sense to shoot carbon. The extra speed will account for a few more points on the scorecard on the long targets.
For hunting though,as long as your shots are generally within 30 yards, the difference in trajectorywould be minimal at best. I'd stick with the 2216's. If you really want to increase your speed, maintain durability, retain excellent consistencyand use a smaller diameter shaft, then I highly recommend ACC's.... if you can afford them. I can't. [&o]
I've shot carbons quite a bit though, for 3Donly. My draw length is so long that I have to use a full length shaft to make arrows, and the ends of carbon arrows are almost always crooked. So, I never could get a broadhead to fly properly with the grade carbon I can afford.
Anyway, I have noticed that a hit that would destroy a 2216 will also destroy a carbon arrow. In fact, I've had quite a few mystery breaks where the carbon arrow didn't hit anything but target andstill snapped in half. Not to mention many that have developed cracks in the endsof the shaft.
Factor inthat carbons wear out and their spine degrades with use. They don't all wear out at the same rate though, so you wind up shooting arrows with various spines and that plays havoc with accuracy. I've seen many a guy sweating and cursing at the range, working hard in a futile effortto tune his bow, when all he needed to do was buy fresh arrows.
So, all in all, I'd actually give 2216's anedgefor durabilitybecause a dozen of them lasts longer than any of thedozens of carbons I've bought. Add in the fact that I never have trouble getting broadheads to fly well with aluminum arrows and have nevergotten carbon to shoot broadheads at all; that aluminums are much more consistent in spine and weight; that aluminum is simply a better shaft, overall than carbon...
As far as I'm concerned, there is only one reason for youto make the change... speed.If you intend to shoot 3D, then yeah, it makes sense to shoot carbon. The extra speed will account for a few more points on the scorecard on the long targets.
For hunting though,as long as your shots are generally within 30 yards, the difference in trajectorywould be minimal at best. I'd stick with the 2216's. If you really want to increase your speed, maintain durability, retain excellent consistencyand use a smaller diameter shaft, then I highly recommend ACC's.... if you can afford them. I can't. [&o]
04-01-2006, 08:34 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Mobow pretty much said everything I would have. If you are happy with the arrows you have and they tune well I would suggest sticking with them just to negate any headaches. Unless you like tinkering. Sometimes it's hard finding the correct spine for a set up, once you do I would leave well enough alone.
I have shot both aluminums and carbons and will be honest and say I have never had any trouble with either. Aluminums do have better tolerances compared to averaged priced carbons but most don't shoot well enough to notice the difference really. My favorite carbons are Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stingers. They shoot fixed blades very well for me and they are SO stiff spine really isn't an issue anymore. These are a tapered carbon arrow with a fair amount of FOC built into them.
That being said I shoot aluminum arrows now, as does my girlfriend. In my opinion they are just better arrows for the money and they are easier to work with for me. With proper care aluminums should last just as long as carbons do. At least they do for me. I have never damaged an aluminum arrow in a way that would not have also damaged a carbon. The upside is with the aluminum you can tell you damaged it. If you smack a metal arrow with another one it will dent it or put a crease in it. This will not happen with a carbon. Does that mean there is nothing wrong with the carbon. Nope, it could still be damaged inside messing up how straight it is, the spine and the safety. There are pics floating around here of people with carbon arrows stuck in their bow hand. Most likely this is what caused it. They had a damaged arrow and didn't know it.
Again, most of it is just opinions. Pretty much any arrow on the market today will work well as long as it fits the bow. Under spined arrows can be hard to tune with fixed heads, so it is usually a good idea to pick an arrow on the stiff side of the scale. That is another advantage to aluminum now that I think of it. There is a much wider choice of spine than with most carbons.
*** EDIT***
Arthur posted the same time I did, after reading his post I would like to say ditto to everything he said and I would like to add I am at the other end of the spectrum, I shoot 25-26 inch arrows most of the time. Short arrows show less differences in tolerances compared to longer ones. This might be why I don't notice a big difference between the two types of arrows. Also if you shoot a lot and have decent form with target tipped arrows you can get away with a lot and still shoot well. Target arrows are pretty forgiving, put a fixed blade on that sucker though and look out!
I also shoot thin walled arrows. I shoot 2213's and my girlfriend shoots 1713 platinum target arrows. These are pretty fragile arrows and the only time I damage one is if I mess up and miss or strike one with another arrow at closer ranges. I will also add that I rarely shoot 3-D, but when I do I actually like aluminums because they pull easier for me.
Paul
I have shot both aluminums and carbons and will be honest and say I have never had any trouble with either. Aluminums do have better tolerances compared to averaged priced carbons but most don't shoot well enough to notice the difference really. My favorite carbons are Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stingers. They shoot fixed blades very well for me and they are SO stiff spine really isn't an issue anymore. These are a tapered carbon arrow with a fair amount of FOC built into them.
That being said I shoot aluminum arrows now, as does my girlfriend. In my opinion they are just better arrows for the money and they are easier to work with for me. With proper care aluminums should last just as long as carbons do. At least they do for me. I have never damaged an aluminum arrow in a way that would not have also damaged a carbon. The upside is with the aluminum you can tell you damaged it. If you smack a metal arrow with another one it will dent it or put a crease in it. This will not happen with a carbon. Does that mean there is nothing wrong with the carbon. Nope, it could still be damaged inside messing up how straight it is, the spine and the safety. There are pics floating around here of people with carbon arrows stuck in their bow hand. Most likely this is what caused it. They had a damaged arrow and didn't know it.
Again, most of it is just opinions. Pretty much any arrow on the market today will work well as long as it fits the bow. Under spined arrows can be hard to tune with fixed heads, so it is usually a good idea to pick an arrow on the stiff side of the scale. That is another advantage to aluminum now that I think of it. There is a much wider choice of spine than with most carbons.
*** EDIT***
Arthur posted the same time I did, after reading his post I would like to say ditto to everything he said and I would like to add I am at the other end of the spectrum, I shoot 25-26 inch arrows most of the time. Short arrows show less differences in tolerances compared to longer ones. This might be why I don't notice a big difference between the two types of arrows. Also if you shoot a lot and have decent form with target tipped arrows you can get away with a lot and still shoot well. Target arrows are pretty forgiving, put a fixed blade on that sucker though and look out!
I also shoot thin walled arrows. I shoot 2213's and my girlfriend shoots 1713 platinum target arrows. These are pretty fragile arrows and the only time I damage one is if I mess up and miss or strike one with another arrow at closer ranges. I will also add that I rarely shoot 3-D, but when I do I actually like aluminums because they pull easier for me.
Paul
04-01-2006, 09:53 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Actually Nord, I think Arthur may be right when he says "...you won't see much difference in durability between a heavier aluminum shaft, like the 2216, and carbon ". I'm ashortdraw and only pull 56# so consequently the aluminums I use to get the spine I need wind up being much less durable than a 2216 would be. I even shot 2013's for a while and I could bend them simply by pulling them out ofa strawtarget.Anyway my experience in switching may well be much different than yours. I'd say try some and make up your own mind.
04-01-2006, 03:55 PM
#7
RE: Metal vs Carbon
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr
Here we go again.
Here we go again.
A good example of the differences between carbon and aluminum is in my post in the technical forum:
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1488840
I used to shoot 2315's out of an old PSE dual cam. Now that I bought my new bow, I switched to carbons. The difference between the two bows and their arrow weights, trajectories, K/E, etc... is incredible.
Aluminum: Been around forever. Strong and very straight. But can get bent easily, depending on spine. Not as fast as carbon.
Carbon: Newer technology. Strong, not as straight as aluminum. Does not bend. It's either straight or it's broken. Faster than aluminum.
A/C/C: Best of both worlds. One of these days I have to try an A/C/C 3-60 out of my bow, or steal one of mobowhuntr's!
04-01-2006, 06:14 PM
#9
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: Metal vs Carbon
ORIGINAL: ButchA
LOL!!! My thoughts exactly....
A/C/C: Best of both worlds. One of these days I have to try an A/C/C 3-60 out of my bow, or steal one of mobowhuntr's!
ORIGINAL: mobowhuntr
Here we go again.
Here we go again.
A/C/C: Best of both worlds. One of these days I have to try an A/C/C 3-60 out of my bow, or steal one of mobowhuntr's!
04-01-2006, 08:36 PM
#10
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Carbon: Newer technology. Strong, not as straight as aluminum. Does not bend. It's either straight or it's broken. Faster than aluminum.
2 - Strong. True
3 - Not as straight as aluminum. True.
4 - Does not bend. True... sort of. You can't bend one, but.... I've had carbons take a set and go crooked, along with losing spine. Go into the archives and track this topic back a few years. It's very obvious I'm not the only one to notice this.
5 - It's either straight or broken.Untrue!See #4. Not to mention that carbon isn't straight to start with. See #3. I hate to see people who are rather knowledgeable actually helping to perpetuate thissillymyth.