Metal vs Carbon
04-01-2006, 08:37 PM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: Metal vs Carbon
The blanket statement that carbon is "not as straight as aluminum" is a bit deceiving. The statement that carbon is "not straight to start with" is simply incorrect and "I hate to see people who are rather knowledgeable actually helping to perpetuate thissillymyth".
All arrows are straight to within some specification.Whatmatters here isthat it is cheaper and easier to manufacture aluminum arrows to within a given spec than it is carbon. It is not true to say that you can't get a set of carbon arrows as straight as a set of aluminum arrows within specs relevant to archery. You just can't get them for the same price.
All arrows are straight to within some specification.Whatmatters here isthat it is cheaper and easier to manufacture aluminum arrows to within a given spec than it is carbon. It is not true to say that you can't get a set of carbon arrows as straight as a set of aluminum arrows within specs relevant to archery. You just can't get them for the same price. 
04-02-2006, 05:36 AM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Sylvan, you take top honors for selective reading. 
The myth I refer to is that idiotic little maxim, "carbon is either straight or broken." Even given their sloppy factory tolerances, it's not true. It's a falsehood. A complete lie. It's just been repeated so often thatpeople assume it's true. Most people don't have the proper tooling to check arrow straightness, so the lie keeps going and going and going....
I've had carbon arrows start out within theirfactory tolerances, +/- .006 (even my cedar arrows are straighter than that!), and after shooting them for a few months they wound up checking well outside of those tolerances. Some as high as +/- .018. Whether it's the carbon fibers breaking down or the glue matrix breaking down, I don't know. But they do get crooked.
Bent aluminum and wood arrows can be straightened to near perfection. Carbon arrows that get crookedare that way forever. I've tried some really extravagent methods to try and straighten them -which I won't go into because I afterward judged them too dangerous- and met with only limited success. Never could get them back to factory specs.
Carbon arrows are fine. You just have to keep in mind they don't last forever. Theydo get crooked. Their spine will soften. They can get cracked, and we all know how dangerous shooting a cracked carbon arrow is. Check them often. Replace them when find cracks or whenyou notice your accuracy going bad.
The myth I refer to is that idiotic little maxim, "carbon is either straight or broken." Even given their sloppy factory tolerances, it's not true. It's a falsehood. A complete lie. It's just been repeated so often thatpeople assume it's true. Most people don't have the proper tooling to check arrow straightness, so the lie keeps going and going and going....
I've had carbon arrows start out within theirfactory tolerances, +/- .006 (even my cedar arrows are straighter than that!), and after shooting them for a few months they wound up checking well outside of those tolerances. Some as high as +/- .018. Whether it's the carbon fibers breaking down or the glue matrix breaking down, I don't know. But they do get crooked.
Bent aluminum and wood arrows can be straightened to near perfection. Carbon arrows that get crookedare that way forever. I've tried some really extravagent methods to try and straighten them -which I won't go into because I afterward judged them too dangerous- and met with only limited success. Never could get them back to factory specs.
Carbon arrows are fine. You just have to keep in mind they don't last forever. Theydo get crooked. Their spine will soften. They can get cracked, and we all know how dangerous shooting a cracked carbon arrow is. Check them often. Replace them when find cracks or whenyou notice your accuracy going bad.
04-02-2006, 06:46 AM
#14
Site Buck Guru
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 5,922
RE: Metal vs Carbon
I shoot alumium arrows for hunting and ACC's for 3-d. The reason I don't use ACC's for hunting is because I like the fletch clearance I get with a 2413 vs the much smaller ACC. My perferred arrow rest is the Golden Premier for all types of shooting. Modified prongs for hunting, the lizzard tongue for indoors and the scooped out post for 3-d.
Personally, I've never had a desire to even try a complete carbon arrow. Why would I want to? I'd rather know when my arrow is bad. You can test for straightness after a bad hit or dent in your aluminium or ACC, but you can't test for spine loss, especially out in the field. You must wait for bad grouping or a flyer, who wants to do that?
Personally, I've never had a desire to even try a complete carbon arrow. Why would I want to? I'd rather know when my arrow is bad. You can test for straightness after a bad hit or dent in your aluminium or ACC, but you can't test for spine loss, especially out in the field. You must wait for bad grouping or a flyer, who wants to do that?
04-02-2006, 06:55 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Sylvan, you take top honors for selective reading.
The myth I refer to is that idiotic little maxim, "carbon is either straight or broken."
The myth I refer to is that idiotic little maxim, "carbon is either straight or broken."
" was a joke. Just ribbing you. Just turning around the way you always ridicule what others say as "silly" or "idiotic". That's what the little smiley face was supposed to convey. I guess you just didn't get that either. Or maybe you just get all bent out of shape when somebody has the audacity to challenge you. Naw, you just like to argue.
I've had carbon arrows start out within theirfactory tolerances, +/- .006 (even my cedar arrows are straighter than that!),...
04-02-2006, 07:48 AM
#16
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Metal vs Carbon
SOMEBODY has to tell it like it is, Sylvan. Call it arrogance if you like. Ridicule, certainly,because"carbon is either straight or broken" isa ridiculous falsehood. It's taking one small factoid and blowing it all out of proportion. Kind of like Ron Popiel's advertising strategy.
To try and sum up what I've been saying...
Carbon arrows don't 'bend' but theydo lose straightness in other ways. So, that's one little saying that desperatelyneeds to be stamped out. A lot of peoplewould shoot a whole lot better with a whole lot fewer problems if they'd just buy new arrows but they don't because they believe their arrows have to be straight.
Similarly, saying carbon is more durable than aluminum. It's only partly true, specificallywhen comparing thin walled, light aluminum arrows vs carbon. I'd put any aluminum arrow with at least 22/64ths diameter or largerand.015 wall thickness or better up against carbon any day for durability. But all you hear is how much more durable carbon is than aluminum, like it's true across the board. And it's NOT.
So, back to straightness.... You say straightness is relative.Okay, I'll bite. Here's how it relates to me: I can't afford carbon arrows as straight as the Gamegetter II's I like to shoot (they don't make ANY carbon arrowthat straight anyway, factory tolerances notwithstanding). The aluminum arrows I choose, as much as I shoot,have provendurable enough to outlast several dozen carbons. So, not only do I get better quality for less $$$ with aluminum, I save even more money because I don't have to replace them as often.
Oh, sure, I could shoot a much faster arrow by using carbon, but then I'd have to spend so much money to get good arrows that I'd be afraid to shoot the buggers. But hey, that's just me. I don't have the luxury of being able to use the cheap carbons by chopping a couple inches off each end of ashaft, cuttingoff the bad ends while taking a shaft to length. So, I'd have to go thethe really high end stuff to get decent arrows.Ain't no way I can stomach watching a$15 arrowsailing off into Neverneverland when I screw up a shot.[&:]
Like I said though, that's just me. It's none of my business how someone else spends his money.
I'm simply saying carbon is not quite as good as it's made out to be, and aluminum is a whole lot better than popular myth says it is. Only a fool would argue with that.
To try and sum up what I've been saying...
Carbon arrows don't 'bend' but theydo lose straightness in other ways. So, that's one little saying that desperatelyneeds to be stamped out. A lot of peoplewould shoot a whole lot better with a whole lot fewer problems if they'd just buy new arrows but they don't because they believe their arrows have to be straight.
Similarly, saying carbon is more durable than aluminum. It's only partly true, specificallywhen comparing thin walled, light aluminum arrows vs carbon. I'd put any aluminum arrow with at least 22/64ths diameter or largerand.015 wall thickness or better up against carbon any day for durability. But all you hear is how much more durable carbon is than aluminum, like it's true across the board. And it's NOT.
So, back to straightness.... You say straightness is relative.Okay, I'll bite. Here's how it relates to me: I can't afford carbon arrows as straight as the Gamegetter II's I like to shoot (they don't make ANY carbon arrowthat straight anyway, factory tolerances notwithstanding). The aluminum arrows I choose, as much as I shoot,have provendurable enough to outlast several dozen carbons. So, not only do I get better quality for less $$$ with aluminum, I save even more money because I don't have to replace them as often.
Oh, sure, I could shoot a much faster arrow by using carbon, but then I'd have to spend so much money to get good arrows that I'd be afraid to shoot the buggers. But hey, that's just me. I don't have the luxury of being able to use the cheap carbons by chopping a couple inches off each end of ashaft, cuttingoff the bad ends while taking a shaft to length. So, I'd have to go thethe really high end stuff to get decent arrows.Ain't no way I can stomach watching a$15 arrowsailing off into Neverneverland when I screw up a shot.[&:]
Like I said though, that's just me. It's none of my business how someone else spends his money.
I'm simply saying carbon is not quite as good as it's made out to be, and aluminum is a whole lot better than popular myth says it is. Only a fool would argue with that.
04-02-2006, 08:07 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: Metal vs Carbon
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
SOMEBODY has to tell it like it is, Sylvan. Call it arrogance if you like. Ridicule, certainly,because"carbon is either straight or broken" isa ridiculous falsehood. It's taking one small factoid and blowing it all out of proportion. Kind of like Ron Popiel's advertising strategy.
To try and sum up what I've been saying...
Carbon arrows don't 'bend' but theydo lose straightness in other ways. So, that's one little saying that desperatelyneeds to be stamped out. A lot of peoplewould shoot a whole lot better with a whole lot fewer problems if they'd just buy new arrows but they don't because they believe their arrows have to be straight.
Similarly, saying carbon is more durable than aluminum. It's only partly true, specificallywhen comparing thin walled, light aluminum arrows vs carbon. I'd put any aluminum arrow with at least 22/64ths diameter or largerand.015 wall thickness or better up against carbon any day for durability. But all you hear is how much more durable carbon is than aluminum, like it's true across the board. And it's NOT.
So, back to straightness.... You say straightness is relative.Okay, I'll bite. Here's how it relates to me: I can't afford carbon arrows as straight as the Gamegetter II's I like to shoot (they don't make ANY carbon arrowthat straight anyway, factory tolerances notwithstanding). The aluminum arrows I choose, as much as I shoot,have provendurable enough to outlast several dozen carbons. So, not only do I get better quality for less $$$ with aluminum, I save even more money because I don't have to replace them as often.
Oh, sure, I could shoot a much faster arrow by using carbon, but then I'd have to spend so much money to get good arrows that I'd be afraid to shoot the buggers. But hey, that's just me. I don't have the luxury of being able to use the cheap carbons by chopping a couple inches off each end of ashaft, cuttingoff the bad ends while taking a shaft to length. So, I'd have to go thethe really high end stuff to get decent arrows.Ain't no way I can stomach watching a$15 arrowsailing off into Neverneverland when I screw up a shot.[&:]
Like I said though, that's just me. It's none of my business how someone else spends his money.
I'm simply saying carbon is not quite as good as it's made out to be, and aluminum is a whole lot better than popular myth says it is. Only a fool would argue with that.
SOMEBODY has to tell it like it is, Sylvan. Call it arrogance if you like. Ridicule, certainly,because"carbon is either straight or broken" isa ridiculous falsehood. It's taking one small factoid and blowing it all out of proportion. Kind of like Ron Popiel's advertising strategy.
To try and sum up what I've been saying...
Carbon arrows don't 'bend' but theydo lose straightness in other ways. So, that's one little saying that desperatelyneeds to be stamped out. A lot of peoplewould shoot a whole lot better with a whole lot fewer problems if they'd just buy new arrows but they don't because they believe their arrows have to be straight.
Similarly, saying carbon is more durable than aluminum. It's only partly true, specificallywhen comparing thin walled, light aluminum arrows vs carbon. I'd put any aluminum arrow with at least 22/64ths diameter or largerand.015 wall thickness or better up against carbon any day for durability. But all you hear is how much more durable carbon is than aluminum, like it's true across the board. And it's NOT.
So, back to straightness.... You say straightness is relative.Okay, I'll bite. Here's how it relates to me: I can't afford carbon arrows as straight as the Gamegetter II's I like to shoot (they don't make ANY carbon arrowthat straight anyway, factory tolerances notwithstanding). The aluminum arrows I choose, as much as I shoot,have provendurable enough to outlast several dozen carbons. So, not only do I get better quality for less $$$ with aluminum, I save even more money because I don't have to replace them as often.
Oh, sure, I could shoot a much faster arrow by using carbon, but then I'd have to spend so much money to get good arrows that I'd be afraid to shoot the buggers. But hey, that's just me. I don't have the luxury of being able to use the cheap carbons by chopping a couple inches off each end of ashaft, cuttingoff the bad ends while taking a shaft to length. So, I'd have to go thethe really high end stuff to get decent arrows.Ain't no way I can stomach watching a$15 arrowsailing off into Neverneverland when I screw up a shot.[&:]
Like I said though, that's just me. It's none of my business how someone else spends his money.
I'm simply saying carbon is not quite as good as it's made out to be, and aluminum is a whole lot better than popular myth says it is. Only a fool would argue with that.
btw I was editing while you were composing your last post so you probably didn't see what I added but you certainly can buy carbons of equal straightness or even tighterstraightness tolerernace than aluminum. So at least relative to aluminum the are indeed "straight to start with". Whether or not it's worth the cost is totally subjective.
Enough said...
04-02-2006, 08:27 AM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 2,435
RE: Metal vs Carbon
SOMEBODY has to tell it like it is, Sylvan. Call it arrogance if you like. Ridicule, certainly...
I guess I was wrong about the "enough said" thing...
O.K. enough said... again...
04-02-2006, 08:52 AM
#19
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 13,082
RE: Metal vs Carbon
I just don't understand how anybody can say carbon is BETTER than aluminum and aluminum is BETTER than carbon.
Facts are facts, and carbon arrows have been the downfall of many, many animals. As have aluminum. Aluminum would have the edge there I would say but only because they've been around twice as long.
Color this any way we want, but one is just as good as the other. One is also just as bad as the other. I've never had a carbon arrow dent, dink or bend. But I've never had an aluminum arrow just lose it's spine either.
Guys say frequently saythat aluminum is needed for the extra weight and KE. Simply not true anymore with the new technology on today's bows. Yes, back in the day, and still some today, the traditional shooter will need all the KE he can get. Todays new compounds have the mechanical advantage. In fact, I am getting more KE than I am pulling. Yes, it's true that a lighter arrow has to be flying much faster to achieve the same KE and yes it's true that a lighter arrow doesn't carry as much momentum. But for the 30 yards max shot I'll take, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts I kill my deer just as dead as a slower heavier arrow.
Had to edit this....I did some bad math......[8D][&:]
Facts are facts, and carbon arrows have been the downfall of many, many animals. As have aluminum. Aluminum would have the edge there I would say but only because they've been around twice as long.
Color this any way we want, but one is just as good as the other. One is also just as bad as the other. I've never had a carbon arrow dent, dink or bend. But I've never had an aluminum arrow just lose it's spine either.
Guys say frequently saythat aluminum is needed for the extra weight and KE. Simply not true anymore with the new technology on today's bows. Yes, back in the day, and still some today, the traditional shooter will need all the KE he can get. Todays new compounds have the mechanical advantage. In fact, I am getting more KE than I am pulling. Yes, it's true that a lighter arrow has to be flying much faster to achieve the same KE and yes it's true that a lighter arrow doesn't carry as much momentum. But for the 30 yards max shot I'll take, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts I kill my deer just as dead as a slower heavier arrow.
Had to edit this....I did some bad math......
[8D][&:]
04-02-2006, 09:01 AM
#20
RE: Metal vs Carbon
Whoa, whoa, whoa.... What did I get into?? [:-]
The statement that I made referring to "carbon is either straight or broken" was a rough quote from a bowhunting video that I have.
Let's see here (naming names):
Stan Potts
Ralph Ciancirulo
Bob Foulkrod
Wayne Carlton
...are a few of the guys on this bowhunting video.
They were talking about carbon versus aluminum. One of them said that carbon is either straight and shootable or its broken (or something like that). They showed aslow motion video (i.e. real slow motion) of an arrow penetrating a 3D target. The aluminum arrow whipped back and forth at impact. The carbon arrow did to an extent but not as bad as the aluminum arrow.
Sorry if I stepped on toes or caused a "spirited debate" over the never ending carbon vs aluminum discussion.
The statement that I made referring to "carbon is either straight or broken" was a rough quote from a bowhunting video that I have.
Let's see here (naming names):
Stan Potts
Ralph Ciancirulo
Bob Foulkrod
Wayne Carlton
...are a few of the guys on this bowhunting video.
They were talking about carbon versus aluminum. One of them said that carbon is either straight and shootable or its broken (or something like that). They showed aslow motion video (i.e. real slow motion) of an arrow penetrating a 3D target. The aluminum arrow whipped back and forth at impact. The carbon arrow did to an extent but not as bad as the aluminum arrow.
Sorry if I stepped on toes or caused a "spirited debate" over the never ending carbon vs aluminum discussion.