Tuffbroadhead

Masterblaster: I was figuring something like this would be said pretty soon about elitism, That is about the biggest bunch of crap I have heard in the whole debate....It dont take a genius to to see you are a bit offended by txhighracks posts, his words of choice like Joeblow, or bubba are exactly that, words phrase's put together to form a sentence, they are not talking down to anybody, I think its just your preception of what you want to read into it...

As far as money goes, to put up a high fence it costs around 12,000.00 per running mile, some ranches will never sell enough hunts to even pay for the fence being put up in the first place, which leads me to believe its not about the money!!!

MasterBlaster

Let me explain. Here is how I interpret these names. Maybe I am wrong but this is what I picture:

Joeblow... the everyday guy that does not have a 6 figure income and will never have any influence.

Bubba... The stupid redneck that makes $6 an hour and lives in a trailer house.

To me these "words phrase's" don’t do anything but talk down to people.He could have used "guy" or "hunter" something much more positive.

As far as this "biggest bunch of crap" goes. Believe this, if I was offended I would have said so. Do not presume to know what offends me. I was not offended.

datamax

I agree, the use of the words are meant to belittle and degrade others (hunters) and are intentional

Tuffbroadhead

Exactly like I said, its all how you preceived it to be....

This whole thread is kinda funny, every time one like this has come up, which is about once a year on differnet websites, and it amusing to see how we as hunters who enjoy the same thing , Hunting!! And to see we are on different sides of the FENCE!!LOL!

And I'll put out a offer to you Masterblaster, I'll be happy to share a campfire anytime, even though we are on differnt sides of the fence issue....I have plenty of hogs that need to be whacked out by Eastland..

LBR

I agree, but that still boils down to money--bigger antlers = more money for that animal.

My mistake then--but that's sure what this next quote seemed to imply.

I can tell you from experience that these deer are VERY wild. They have had to adapt to more dangers than any deer that lives a protected life in a fence, and common sense tells me they are a heck of a lot more challenging to hunt.

I'm sure it's not the case every time, but I've heard too many stories--primarily from people I know--about deer and other animals that live in a fence that have tamed down a LOT. One person talked about a deer that they were able to sneak up on, in it's bed, and touch it with an arrow. Out of curiosity, do these ranches have the natural preditors removed also?

Maybe we just have a different opinion on what is "blunt". What it boils down to is the deer are easier to kill, only certain people will ever have a chance tokill them, and they will have a tremendously better chance of growing a "trophy" rack and/or living to be much older. Deer on pressured land don't live long enough to grow trophy racks unless they are very smart. To me, the hunt is about the challenge, not about how big the rack is. I'd bet the deer here that may cross umpteen property lines in a weeks time are a whole lot more challenging to hunt. It's a challenge to even get acess to places to hunt to try and even set up on one.

That statement has just lost me. How is it more ethical and fair? Because the deer gets to live until it grows an acceptable rack before it gets killed? I haven't made any comparisons to smaller enclosures--they are the worst kind IMO. Does the law differentiate between poachers/trespassers that break the law on unfenced land, low fenced land, and high fenced land? A poacher is a poacher, a trespasser is a trespasser--at least to me.

I didn't say everyone did it for the money--I also noted a category for the folks that could afford it, and just wanted to have their own peice of deer heaven for their own enjoyment.

I don' t know about "Bubba" and "Joe Blow", but I fully agree with the rest. It's all about ME, right here, right now. So what if the majority of the population can't afford to fence in thousands, or even hundreds of acres for their own little private ranch. So what if the majority of the population can't afford to pay big bucks to hunt the big bucks. I'll tell you what--it's just like MB said--you are cheating yourself, and your decendants, right out of their right to hunt. Politicians set the rules. Politicians are elected by the majority. Guess who the politicians listen to and cater to? Guess what's going to happen to hunting when there are too few hunters to be heard?

Put your emotions and personal preferances aside for just a moment, and use your common sense. Canned hunts, guided hunts, fenced hunts, etc. areBIG business--otherwise they would be few and far between. Now, listening to common sense, do you still have any doubt whatsoever that it's not about the money, at least in most cases?

Please don't take thisas a personal attack--it's not. You have just brought up the points that caught my attention, and the ones I felt like addressing. I don't know you, and have no reason whatsoever to attack you personally.What bothers me iswhat this type of business is doing to our sport. It's a cancer that is slowly but surely killing it.

I don't have a problem with folks that like big antlers--I reckon that's just human nature. I reckon it's also human nature to cheat and get thoseantlers the easiest way possible.Yes, I do feel that hunting in a fence, where the herds arecontrolled,managed, and supplimented; where the pressure is low and my guess is even the natural preditors are removed, is cheating. It sure as heck isn't nearly the challenge that hunting these deer on their own turf is--deer that grew that rack due to being smarter, faster, stronger, and more cautious than their brothers. Any decent buck here, unless you get lucky, takes work. Shoot, it can be really tough to get a doe for freezer meat, with a bow. I really don't see the point in "hunting" these fenced in deer with a bow, muzzleloader, or any other weapon that limits you. What's the point, if the goal is the biggest rack, and you are taking the easiest route possible anyway? As far as that goes, why is a smaller enclosure bad and a big enclosure just fine? Is the smaller enclosure cheating too much? You want it easier, but not too easy? I'm having a hard time understanding this.

Personally I love rabbit hunting, with a bow. It's one heck of a challenge, and (as I said), that's what hunting is all about to me--the challenge. I don't care if rabbits don't have antlers. As far as that goes, I wish there was some way to classify trophy does--I've been busted lots more times by does than I have bucks. They can be unbelieveably smart.

Admit it or not, even realize it or not, it does boil down to greed, or at least selfishness. You want it,you like it,you might even make good money at it, so tough luck to those that have to pay for it in the future--you aregoing to haveyour fun right now.

You may not have ever thought about it like that, but that is what it boils down to. Thousands of acres made private, made into pay "hunts", made into high-dollar leases, etc. is driving the Average Joe away from hunting. Well, that's really not an accurate statement--they are getting priced out of the sport--they simply can't afford it. Not everyone was lucky enough, driven enough, even smart enough to pull down a big salary and/or inherit alot of property or money.Fences--whether it's high or low, 100 acres or 100,000 acres, looks really bad to the non-hunting public.From what I've read, there are lots more non-hunters than hunters, and the gap continues to widen--I think largely in part due the the reason I already stated. It doesn't matter if that perception is based on fact or not--votes won't be culled due to the voter not having all the facts. Think about it.

If you don't careaboutthe future of our sport, well, I don't guess there is anything else to say. If you do care about it, consider what you are supporting and defending, and do something about it.

Chad

Gundigest

The game ranch here in Mecosta sells hunts in the $12,000+ range. Are you telling me they are not making money?Taking the standpoint that the deer do run the fences only works when it is a large area and only on one side. If 2 or 3 of your neighbors put up high fences they will not be on the property like they would be without a fence.

QDM is another problem in my opinion. I have deer hunted since I was 12 and the biggest buck I have shot is a 4 point with my bow. We have 8 point bucks running around but they are not stupid and we onlyshot one once in a while. When I do shot an 8 point I will be extremely happy and it will probably go on the wall. WithQDM especially in high fences, someone takes their kid in to shoot a management buck (8 points) for their first deer and it is taking all of the special, meaningful, challenges and accomplishments out of hunting. How happy will that kid be shooting a 4 point? How many 8-12 point buck mounts do you have to have on the wall before they are all the same and no more importance to you than a spike or a doe? It would get to the point where it no longer felt like hunting and you were just killing. I have no problem with the neighbors getting together and saying "hey guys lets let the 4 or 6 pointers go this year"but the high fencers take it to a whole new level.

As for our 100 acres goes, there are 2-3 of us bow hunting and 4 rifle hunting. We have more than enough land for us to hunt safely. The neighbors are from the city and often have 6-8 people on their 50 acres which is 95% field. We are not throwing up a high fence to keep them out.

As for the fences are to keep trespassers out, that is what the laws are for, if they don't work then the penalties should be higher. If a trespassers cuts the fence and goes in you are relying on the same laws you didn't trust to keep the trespassers out in the first place.

datamax

In Texas they don't know any better LBR because of lack of public grounds to hunt on. In texas with few exceptions, if you hunt you pay and often pay dearly. I spent a lot of time in Texas but never hunted there because I didn't want to pony up a grand or two for access.

Besides, little 100 pound deer that makes a 125" rack look B&C don't excite me much anyway

Tuffbroadhead

The game ranch here in Mecosta sells hunts in the $12,000+ range. Are you telling me they are not making money?


To Some ranches its not about the money bro..I have several friends that own high fence ranches and will never sell a hunt....
but if you want to single out prosp
ects like the Mecosta ranch lets look at it this way one deer 12,000.00 that wont even pay the saleray of a ranch hand, if they sold 20 hunts for 12,000 and its not likely they might be able to pay some of there bills, taxes workers, protein , or what ever else they would need to spend money on..they would be lucky to break even..


With QDM especially in high fences, someone takes their kid in to shoot a management buck (8 points) for their first deer and it is taking all of the special, meaningful, challenges and accomplishments out of hunting.


So what now, we are not teachng our children the way you think is right???? My daugthers first deer was awesome, she sat with me in the edge of a wheat field and she harvested a old doe, with her 308. it was a memory of a lifetime, and its what got her hooked on hunting, two weeks later she was in my stand and shot a deer I had asked her exspressly not to, it was her first buck 9pt 1.5 year old deer, I was still very happy with her and never said a thing to her I let her brag to all the guys how she had shot the deer and live in the moment of that special first time harvest, but I guess for a guy like you that may or may not have children old enough to hunt can pass judgement on me.

well lets ad another story here for you, her second buck was harvested off of the world Famous King ranch, are you envious yet, hell I was... I watched literally a hundred different bucks that day, (it was only a one day hunt) and it also made memiories of a lifetime she harvested a 7 pt, with a typical 5 pt side and a 14 inch spike on the other with a 3 inch brow tine.. she bragged for several years about that hunt to anybody who would stand still long enought to listen. But she also decided ON HER OWN!! (could be because I rasied and taught her right) that she did'nt like the way that she had to harvest that buck, and if she ever went back she wanted to do it with a bow and make it more of a personal hunt..she now uses her bow only, and wont even pick up a gun. But I guess I have taught her all wrong....

How many 8-12 point buck mounts do you have to have on the wall before they are all the same and no more importance to you than a spike or a doe?

You still dont get it do you, each and every buck that I have every seen is natures work of art, each and every one is differnt and has its own beauty, its not about how many you harvest either, its about working your but off to improve something that YOUR CHILDREN AND FAMILY CAN ENJOY!!!

As for our 100 acres goes, there are 2-3 of us bow hunting and 4 rifle hunting. We have more than enough land for us to hunt safely. The neighbors are from the city and often have 6-8 people on their 50 acres which is 95% field.

Thats just plain scary.......I for one would never hunt with that many people PACKED on the a small parcel of land....thats why they call them ACCIDENTS BRO...

TXhighrack

LBR:

As usual this high fence thread has turned into a "class envy" thread. Since somebody else has turned this into a class envy deal, I'll explain excatly how I feel about it. If some think I have an elitist attitude, then so be it. I'm here to explain the way I feel, not to try and make everybody happy or kiss any a$$.

I'll be honest, I really dont care about the "average joe". I was not put on this earth to babysit or make sure everything is fair to everybody. I've never been a big fan of the "welfare system" or even the social security system in this country, I wish they would do away with both. I think people should be responsible for their own actions and should make their own way in life. I'm not a big fan of being taxed to death, just so the government can take my money and give it to those "less fortunate" then me. In the last few years this has really flooded over into the hunting community as well. To me its sickening. If you want something then go out and do it and get it yourself, dont rely on others.

Its very clear that your one of those guys (as are alot of hunters) who think everything should be fair, and that nobody should have it anybetter then anybody else. I think the only way that you would be happy is if all the land in this country was opened to the public and could be hunted by whomever. I'm sorry but I'm not a communist.

How in the world am I cheating myself and my desendants out of the right to hunt? I will always be able to hunt, my children will always be able to hunt, and so will their children and their great grandchildren. Its guys like you who will not be able to hunt, nor will your children. WHY? Because my family and myself had the foresight to buy land, thousands and thousands of acres of land that is ours. If we want to go hunting, we go hunting. We dont have to try and find a piece of public land to squeeze onto and hopefully after 3 months of hunting we might kill a spike. Myself along with many other Texans will always be able to hunt, because of the fact we own the land in this state. I PROMISE that there will ALWAYS be hunting in Texas. Other states might ban it, the number of hunters might drop to almost non existant, but there will still be people in Texas who are out there hunting. You can mark my word on that one.

datamax

well, that says it all, doesn't it ? I care about Hunting - average Joe and all.

I bet you hate public lands then huh ?

Thats not what is being addressed. Fencing in deer so you can get bigger antlers and tweak the genetics is what is ruining hunting. Fencing in deer so you can sell the hutns for $12,000 each is ruining hunting. Fencing in deer to raise and keep your own private little deer herd is ruining hunting.

Its sounding as if you LIKE the idea of a very few people owning lots of private lands and eveyone else be edited. THAT is not what Hunting is, was and if its the wave of the future ? Hunting is doomed.

And there you go. Thing is ........... what you'll be hunting is enclosed animals not unlike farmed animals with the exception that they're not really tame nor wild.

Know this ......... the world does not revolve around Texas. When push comes to shove, and Hunting is banned, it will include your lands as well, bet on it. Can you hunt year round in Texas ? Poach deer at night in Texas ? Cut the horns and leave the meat ? See .......... laws DO stretch out to you and yours - you must abide by them too. Thinking that because you inherited land to live on makes you immune ? Naive at best

I'm glad you have that land to hunt - good for you and your family. 99 % of Hunters do not have that. And it appears you are very against those 99% having a place to hunt ? Remember that when/if you ever need those 99% of Hunters on your side for anything.