Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
07-12-2005, 04:54 AM
#161
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
I'd like to say I get a kick out of wacko threads like this one, but when I think about it, I get a bit upset.
I worry when a segment of hunters wants to increase laws that are made to restrict how we kill our animals. Since the first time man ever killed an animal to eat, the method he choose was completely irelevant. It's only recently, since anti-hunting propaganda has taken hold, that hunters have started pointing fingers and claiming foul - "that way is too easy, it's not hunting". Pretty soon, there will be other "hunters", who point there finger at your method and claim, "that way is too easy, it's not hunting". Anti-hunters will make sure that this trend continues until there is no more hunting. Heck if you think about it, no hunting is fair to the animal. There is no such thing as "fair chase". It's always unfair and we alway kill animals with methods that give us huge advantages. The only differences are the degrees of unfairness.
I happen to believe that animals are killed behind a fence and those that are killed without a fence nearby are both just dead animals and neither feels they were given "repect". It should always be legal to kill animals in any manner deemed safe and acceptable to the local area. Let each individual decide how difficult they want their kill to be. There is no room for the "holier than thou" hunter if killing animals is to remain legal.
I worry when a segment of hunters wants to increase laws that are made to restrict how we kill our animals. Since the first time man ever killed an animal to eat, the method he choose was completely irelevant. It's only recently, since anti-hunting propaganda has taken hold, that hunters have started pointing fingers and claiming foul - "that way is too easy, it's not hunting". Pretty soon, there will be other "hunters", who point there finger at your method and claim, "that way is too easy, it's not hunting". Anti-hunters will make sure that this trend continues until there is no more hunting. Heck if you think about it, no hunting is fair to the animal. There is no such thing as "fair chase". It's always unfair and we alway kill animals with methods that give us huge advantages. The only differences are the degrees of unfairness.
I happen to believe that animals are killed behind a fence and those that are killed without a fence nearby are both just dead animals and neither feels they were given "repect". It should always be legal to kill animals in any manner deemed safe and acceptable to the local area. Let each individual decide how difficult they want their kill to be. There is no room for the "holier than thou" hunter if killing animals is to remain legal.
07-12-2005, 07:18 AM
#162
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 202
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
Straightarrow & Moose75,
Consider this scenario:
25 hunters (we'll call them group A) have had access to 10,000 acres of land formany years. They've enjoyed hunting this land year after year, been able to encourage some of their family members and friends to learn to hunt by showing them how to hunt it. They plan to teach their children how to hunt on this land as well.
Then one day2 peoplecome along and offer the land owners something they can't refuse: a lease for $30,000/year. Now group A is left twittling their thumbs during the next hunting seasons, maybe some of them decide not to hunt anymore, maybe their kids grow up not appreciating hunting because they didn't have the opportunity to enjoy it.
Then these 2 people decide to put up high fences around all the property, trapping in the deer, affecting the population for all the other hunters surrounding the 10,000 acres. All so 2 people can control the herds andcharge outrageous feesto some doctors from NY who have never hunted in their life and decided one day that a nice big buck would look good on their wall. Now ofcourse I knownot all customersare like this, but I have seen this WAY too many times.
It would appear to me that if this trend would continue - the number of hunters would decrease dramatically as well as the amount of land available to hunt. I have always been and always will be againstlaws that challenge hunting, but I'm DEFINATELY against a trend that reduces the number of hunters like this does.
You mean back when the population of the animal he killed FAR outweighed the population of humans? Given todays human population and exponential increase in growth, if we still hunted deer like we did back when man 1st killed an animal to eat - deer would be extinct in no time. There is a good reason for regulating "how we kill our animals", its called population control.
Consider this scenario:
25 hunters (we'll call them group A) have had access to 10,000 acres of land formany years. They've enjoyed hunting this land year after year, been able to encourage some of their family members and friends to learn to hunt by showing them how to hunt it. They plan to teach their children how to hunt on this land as well.
Then one day2 peoplecome along and offer the land owners something they can't refuse: a lease for $30,000/year. Now group A is left twittling their thumbs during the next hunting seasons, maybe some of them decide not to hunt anymore, maybe their kids grow up not appreciating hunting because they didn't have the opportunity to enjoy it.
Then these 2 people decide to put up high fences around all the property, trapping in the deer, affecting the population for all the other hunters surrounding the 10,000 acres. All so 2 people can control the herds andcharge outrageous feesto some doctors from NY who have never hunted in their life and decided one day that a nice big buck would look good on their wall. Now ofcourse I knownot all customersare like this, but I have seen this WAY too many times.
It would appear to me that if this trend would continue - the number of hunters would decrease dramatically as well as the amount of land available to hunt. I have always been and always will be againstlaws that challenge hunting, but I'm DEFINATELY against a trend that reduces the number of hunters like this does.
Since the first time man ever killed an animal to eat, the method he choose was completely irelevant
07-12-2005, 08:10 AM
#163
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 982
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
I don't like excessive laws or increased govt. control either, however high fences are bad on a number of different levels. If they do help spread disease like CWD as it appears they do then for that reason alone they should be illegal. Why should the entire countries natural deer herd be jeopardized because some wealthy selfish guy wants to protect HIS hunting while saying screw everyone else? I am not referring to anyone on this forum just some people in general who are only thinking of themselves and not the sport or the other hunters they need to protect the sport.
As for the population control thing, it is absolutely necessary tocontinue hunting for population control reasons. It is much more humane to put a bullet in the lungs than letting the entire herd overpopulate and starve to death.
As for the population control thing, it is absolutely necessary tocontinue hunting for population control reasons. It is much more humane to put a bullet in the lungs than letting the entire herd overpopulate and starve to death.
07-12-2005, 08:46 AM
#164
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alexandria La. USA
Posts: 124
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
I did not read the whole thread, so if this is repetitive, I'm sorry. I am against high fences for one reason, and one only. The landowner has been allowed to take into his possession deer that belong to the State/people.
07-12-2005, 09:11 AM
#165
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
I am going to withhold comment on the original thread butdon't states require that you drive the animals out of an enclosure before you close it? Also, if you kill an animal aren't you taking an animal in your possession that belongs to the state/people? If you kill several animals haven't you taken several animals into your possession that belong to the state/people? How do you rationalize/justify the difference?
07-12-2005, 10:53 AM
#166
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 613
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
Guys, I know most of you mean well, but lets get the facts straight...
The deer we own are ours. We do not take wild deer and contain them. Through years of captive selective breeding we have desirable attributes bred into deer that we purchase. There might be exceptions, but generally speaking, we are selective as to whats in and whats out.
This idea that guys could always hunt so and so's land and now its tied up with leases/enclosures/other hunters priviledge, look, its usage. If you own the land, you get to choose how to use it. If you dont, you have no say. It stinks, but thats the way it goes.
Why is it always a rich doctor who lives in NY that doesnt know how to hunt? Kansas, for example, recently opened non resident hunting. Just for more rich doctors from NY, Ill bet...
Like it or not, captive herds and the records of their movement are the only tool that agencies have to look at trace back records. CWD and other disease is in the wild and has spread more due to other means than the captive herd programs. Im tired of defending this one based on other's accusations based on heresay. In fact, captive herds have done more to HELP control EHD, by way of breeding for resistence.
As far as losing land (land you never owned to begin with) for hunting, you had better get out there and make development illegal too, while youre at it. And take a look at who can and cant sell their land too. Horse farms? Illegal, you cant hunt on those either. Seem silly? Of course it is. All these things are taking away prime hunting opportunities for you and I. Large leases are not exclusive to just rich docs. Enclosures might not be your cup of tea either. But, when the rest of the land is developed, and permanently lost, who will you blame then? What should be illegal then? We cant buy up all the land to keep for hunting, thats why so many landowners are selling off. Maybe leasing or at least setting aside land long-term IS the last resort.
Ive had some nice PMs with guys in here thats been pretty civil, I hope this thread can do the same...
The deer we own are ours. We do not take wild deer and contain them. Through years of captive selective breeding we have desirable attributes bred into deer that we purchase. There might be exceptions, but generally speaking, we are selective as to whats in and whats out.
This idea that guys could always hunt so and so's land and now its tied up with leases/enclosures/other hunters priviledge, look, its usage. If you own the land, you get to choose how to use it. If you dont, you have no say. It stinks, but thats the way it goes.
Why is it always a rich doctor who lives in NY that doesnt know how to hunt? Kansas, for example, recently opened non resident hunting. Just for more rich doctors from NY, Ill bet...
Like it or not, captive herds and the records of their movement are the only tool that agencies have to look at trace back records. CWD and other disease is in the wild and has spread more due to other means than the captive herd programs. Im tired of defending this one based on other's accusations based on heresay. In fact, captive herds have done more to HELP control EHD, by way of breeding for resistence.
As far as losing land (land you never owned to begin with) for hunting, you had better get out there and make development illegal too, while youre at it. And take a look at who can and cant sell their land too. Horse farms? Illegal, you cant hunt on those either. Seem silly? Of course it is. All these things are taking away prime hunting opportunities for you and I. Large leases are not exclusive to just rich docs. Enclosures might not be your cup of tea either. But, when the rest of the land is developed, and permanently lost, who will you blame then? What should be illegal then? We cant buy up all the land to keep for hunting, thats why so many landowners are selling off. Maybe leasing or at least setting aside land long-term IS the last resort.
Ive had some nice PMs with guys in here thats been pretty civil, I hope this thread can do the same...
07-12-2005, 01:14 PM
#167
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alexandria La. USA
Posts: 124
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
ORIGINAL: silentassassin
I am going to withhold comment on the original thread butdon't states require that you drive the animals out of an enclosure before you close it? Also, if you kill an animal aren't you taking an animal in your possession that belongs to the state/people? If you kill several animals haven't you taken several animals into your possession that belong to the state/people? How do you rationalize/justify the difference?
I am going to withhold comment on the original thread butdon't states require that you drive the animals out of an enclosure before you close it? Also, if you kill an animal aren't you taking an animal in your possession that belongs to the state/people? If you kill several animals haven't you taken several animals into your possession that belong to the state/people? How do you rationalize/justify the difference?
07-12-2005, 04:41 PM
#168
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
Kansasdeerhunter,
The senerio you describe is one that no hunter likes to see. However, I will defend forever, a man's right to do with his land what he chooses. If he makes money on it, too bad. He's the one who had to pay for the land and it's upkeep. He's the one who pays the taxes and assumes all risks of ownership. He certainly deserves the right to put a fence up if he wants. No one has the right to tresspass on his property without permission and he has the right to charge tresspass fees and fence it, to control his property.
You must have missed where I said " in any manner deemed safe and acceptable to the local area". Of course, game limit laws have to be followed to be deemed acceptible to any area of the country.
The senerio you describe is one that no hunter likes to see. However, I will defend forever, a man's right to do with his land what he chooses. If he makes money on it, too bad. He's the one who had to pay for the land and it's upkeep. He's the one who pays the taxes and assumes all risks of ownership. He certainly deserves the right to put a fence up if he wants. No one has the right to tresspass on his property without permission and he has the right to charge tresspass fees and fence it, to control his property.
You mean back when the population of the animal he killed FAR outweighed the population of humans? Given todays human population and exponential increase in growth, if we still hunted deer like we did back when man 1st killed an animal to eat - deer would be extinct in no time. There is a good reason for regulating "how we kill our animals", its called population control.
07-13-2005, 07:51 AM
#169
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 202
RE: Should high fence deer pens be illegal???
Like it was said before, this debate is never going to end. We are too far on the other side of the fences. I will never understand howsome people can continue to do what they do when it ruins hunting for others. They will never understand why I don't agree with what they do. Its a sad state of affairs, but I guess its the way things will be for now. Thanks to all of you who have been civil in this debate. I'm going to stop posting on this topic and start getting ready for the upcoming hunting seasons. Good luck to you and yours.
