savage ml
12-15-2004, 10:24 AM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Greensboro NC USA
Posts: 563
RE: savage ml
Little-D,
Much of what has been posted is good straight poop. Most of your questions appear to be answered. As shown and stated the 209 primers are enclosed on the bolt face. Out of the 18,000+ rounds that I have shoot out of 10ML-II's alone, I have yet to have one stuck. The breech plug is removable, all you have to do, is loosen the rear action screw 2-3 turns, and remove the bolt, insert the breech plug removal tool and break the breech plug loose and remove. In the breech plug there is what is called a "vent liner". This will have to be removed and lubed every time the breech plug is removed for cleaning, say every 75-100 rounds. The purpose of the vent liner, is two fold. First it is a wear item, in that once the orfice, which is .030", opens to say .045" or more, accuracy will start to go away and groups will open up with no appearant reason. A vent liner cost $1.5-$2 and are cheaper to replace than replacing the entire $17 breech plug. Speaking of the breech plug, iit is a good idea to have one or two spare, as well. Secondly, the .030" orfice really chokes the amount of pressure that, may be bleeding reward back toward the primer. The .030" orfice chokes these prssures off, down to a level that the 209 primers can handle them very comfortably.
The 10ML-II (and 10ML for that matter) was designed to shoot saboted ballots exclusively, but several people have gotten very good result from bore size conicals like powerbelts. However the powerbelts can't be pushed nearly as fast as the saboted bullets can and are limited to about 1,800 FPS or so. With saboted bullets, regardless of whether you are shooting a 10ML-II with Accurate Arms 5744 or 150gr of FFF T-7, you are going to get some degree of fouling from the sabots. The amount and rate of fouling really depends on the heaviness of the charge. With the 10ML-II with heavy charges of AA 5744, VV N-110, IMR4227, or IMR4759, you can expect enough build up to adversely effect accuracy in about dozen rounds or so. Nothing that a couple of strokes from a bore brush and a little solvent won't get rid of. With medium to mild loads, you shouldn't get any significant fouling build up.
As for powders and weighing, dipping, volumn, etc., some powders can be dipped, with satisfactory results and some have to be weighed to satisfactory results. Vihta Vouhri N110 for example is a top performer in the 10ML-II, but it is very sensetive, in that +/- .2 of a grain vairence can really upset a group, so weighing individual charges is recommended for optimum accuracy. Accurate Arms 5744 however, is extremely forgiving, in that dipped charges vaireing as much as +/- .5 grains, makes hardly any difference in groups at all. Of the powders recommended by Savage for the 10ML-II, any of them can be dipped with LEE Powder Dippers, and dippers in the 3.1cc, 3.4cc, and 3.7cc are the top choices.
As for these "catastrophic failures" of 10ML-II's supposedly out there, I (and Savage) know of only one. Back in March 2004, Toby Bridges has done what no other has been able to do, including Savage who deliberately tried to blow one and could not, and that is to blow a Savage muzzleloader. This is a very significant achievement for the self-proclaimed "the country's top muzzleloading expert". There were some things going on, between Toby/Savage and Toby/Balls, at the time of Toby's " catastrophic failure", that may have lead to Toby's deliberately (in my opinion) blowing this 10ML-II. I have read Savage's "official" findings and response to this issue and I know of Savage's "unoffical" findings and response. Toby Bridges was on very thin ice with both Savage and Henry Ball back in March 2004, for proclaiming, promoting, and advising the use of increasingly hotter and hotter loads, to include duplex, reverse duplex, and triplex loads. Toby Bridges was warned repeatedly to stop and cease all shooting and promotion of these loads. Toby's repsonse to both Savage and Henry Ball, was "F-you, I am going to what I want to do, the way I want to, and you can't and ain't going to stop me, because you are just a bunch of stupid F-ing idiots, and if you don't like you can kiss my behind." I paraphrased it but the qoute is about 70% accurate. At that point Henry Ball fired Toby, he just didn't let Toby know it until early August. In late August, Savage followed suit and fired Toby for the second time. Immediately, Toby started a barrage of blackmail and extortion threats. At this time lawsuites have been against Toby and more to follow. Toby now claims to be totally against smokeless pwoder muzzleloading now, after being it staunches supporters and advocates for 5 years becuase of this blown 10ML-II incident, yet he readily admitted that he shot another 1,000+ rounds through other 10ML-II's immediatley after the blow up. That's about all I can elaborate on this issue for the moment.
I know of 3 instances in which barrels have been bugled or ringed. In all three instances, the shooters amitted that it as there fault. One was from a double charge of Lil Gun, another was from a ramrod left in the bore, and another from another double charge. In all these instances the 10ML-II were returned to Savage, the barrel replaced, the 10ML-II was inspected, test fired then returned to the customer free of charge.
There are a couple of really good site you can go to to get additional information on Savage muzzleloaders. Here are a couple links.
http://randymagic.tripod.com/savage.htm
http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage
Much of what has been posted is good straight poop. Most of your questions appear to be answered. As shown and stated the 209 primers are enclosed on the bolt face. Out of the 18,000+ rounds that I have shoot out of 10ML-II's alone, I have yet to have one stuck. The breech plug is removable, all you have to do, is loosen the rear action screw 2-3 turns, and remove the bolt, insert the breech plug removal tool and break the breech plug loose and remove. In the breech plug there is what is called a "vent liner". This will have to be removed and lubed every time the breech plug is removed for cleaning, say every 75-100 rounds. The purpose of the vent liner, is two fold. First it is a wear item, in that once the orfice, which is .030", opens to say .045" or more, accuracy will start to go away and groups will open up with no appearant reason. A vent liner cost $1.5-$2 and are cheaper to replace than replacing the entire $17 breech plug. Speaking of the breech plug, iit is a good idea to have one or two spare, as well. Secondly, the .030" orfice really chokes the amount of pressure that, may be bleeding reward back toward the primer. The .030" orfice chokes these prssures off, down to a level that the 209 primers can handle them very comfortably.
The 10ML-II (and 10ML for that matter) was designed to shoot saboted ballots exclusively, but several people have gotten very good result from bore size conicals like powerbelts. However the powerbelts can't be pushed nearly as fast as the saboted bullets can and are limited to about 1,800 FPS or so. With saboted bullets, regardless of whether you are shooting a 10ML-II with Accurate Arms 5744 or 150gr of FFF T-7, you are going to get some degree of fouling from the sabots. The amount and rate of fouling really depends on the heaviness of the charge. With the 10ML-II with heavy charges of AA 5744, VV N-110, IMR4227, or IMR4759, you can expect enough build up to adversely effect accuracy in about dozen rounds or so. Nothing that a couple of strokes from a bore brush and a little solvent won't get rid of. With medium to mild loads, you shouldn't get any significant fouling build up.
As for powders and weighing, dipping, volumn, etc., some powders can be dipped, with satisfactory results and some have to be weighed to satisfactory results. Vihta Vouhri N110 for example is a top performer in the 10ML-II, but it is very sensetive, in that +/- .2 of a grain vairence can really upset a group, so weighing individual charges is recommended for optimum accuracy. Accurate Arms 5744 however, is extremely forgiving, in that dipped charges vaireing as much as +/- .5 grains, makes hardly any difference in groups at all. Of the powders recommended by Savage for the 10ML-II, any of them can be dipped with LEE Powder Dippers, and dippers in the 3.1cc, 3.4cc, and 3.7cc are the top choices.
As for these "catastrophic failures" of 10ML-II's supposedly out there, I (and Savage) know of only one. Back in March 2004, Toby Bridges has done what no other has been able to do, including Savage who deliberately tried to blow one and could not, and that is to blow a Savage muzzleloader. This is a very significant achievement for the self-proclaimed "the country's top muzzleloading expert". There were some things going on, between Toby/Savage and Toby/Balls, at the time of Toby's " catastrophic failure", that may have lead to Toby's deliberately (in my opinion) blowing this 10ML-II. I have read Savage's "official" findings and response to this issue and I know of Savage's "unoffical" findings and response. Toby Bridges was on very thin ice with both Savage and Henry Ball back in March 2004, for proclaiming, promoting, and advising the use of increasingly hotter and hotter loads, to include duplex, reverse duplex, and triplex loads. Toby Bridges was warned repeatedly to stop and cease all shooting and promotion of these loads. Toby's repsonse to both Savage and Henry Ball, was "F-you, I am going to what I want to do, the way I want to, and you can't and ain't going to stop me, because you are just a bunch of stupid F-ing idiots, and if you don't like you can kiss my behind." I paraphrased it but the qoute is about 70% accurate. At that point Henry Ball fired Toby, he just didn't let Toby know it until early August. In late August, Savage followed suit and fired Toby for the second time. Immediately, Toby started a barrage of blackmail and extortion threats. At this time lawsuites have been against Toby and more to follow. Toby now claims to be totally against smokeless pwoder muzzleloading now, after being it staunches supporters and advocates for 5 years becuase of this blown 10ML-II incident, yet he readily admitted that he shot another 1,000+ rounds through other 10ML-II's immediatley after the blow up. That's about all I can elaborate on this issue for the moment.
I know of 3 instances in which barrels have been bugled or ringed. In all three instances, the shooters amitted that it as there fault. One was from a double charge of Lil Gun, another was from a ramrod left in the bore, and another from another double charge. In all these instances the 10ML-II were returned to Savage, the barrel replaced, the 10ML-II was inspected, test fired then returned to the customer free of charge.
There are a couple of really good site you can go to to get additional information on Savage muzzleloaders. Here are a couple links.
http://randymagic.tripod.com/savage.htm
http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage
