metro

So, did the new craze of modern muzzle loaders start because of the loopholes it offered for an earlier or longer season, greater ease of procuring a tag and being able to use them in shotgun only states? I remember my dad going on a ML only hunt probably 20+ years ago with the Hawkins rifle we made together and I remember then never having heard of such a hunt. By the way, I am in trouble. My wife is already rolling her eyes as she walks by and see's the computer screen showing various muzzle loaders as well as the Cabellas catalog and she does'nt even know about the Uberti Cattleman I bought the other night, I'm still trying to think of how I'm gonna explain that one seeing as I just got a Winchester model 94 30-30 a month ago.

Metro

Wolfhound76

[quote]ORIGINAL: metro
Loopholes? There are no loopholes. It started because people were unhappy with the performance of what was out there. Same thing with sabots. Del Ramsey was unhappy with what was out there and came up with another way to do it.

Let's face it, if nobody wanted better guns we'd all still be using the earliest style of muzzleloaders. The new guns just fill a nitch for those that want them.

metro

I'd certainly call being able to use a .50 caliber muzzle loader with a range out to 200 yards in a shotgun state a loophole as well as greatly improving the odds of getting an elk tag when an individual had failed in attempts for the modern rifle season. If someone was unhappy with the performance of say a traditional looking and functioning Hawkins rifle then why don't they use a modern high power centerfire rifle? I'm not trying to find fault here I am just very intrerested in how muzzle loaders have evolved from what I built and shot many years ago to something that is not far in appearance from a modern rifle.

Metro

Wolfhound76

I should have said reliability instead as it would have been clearer. To me reliability is a perfomance issue.

I've got a sidelock and it doesn't fire all the time. When I'm hunting I do want the gun to go bang. I just would not have taken a sidelock out this morning with the constant drizzle. Perhaps that's why it started at first. I really don't know. I do know that's why Tony Knight got started into making muzzleloaders. Some of his customers complained and the next year they took some of his early production. The guns he made at first apparently sold fast enough that there was a market for it.

cayugad

The Traditional muzzleloaders are very under rated by many people. What makes you think that if you really tuned your load and practiced, and used the same optics as a modern inline that you too could not make the same shots with a traditional hawkins rifle?

If you take the scopes off the inline muzzleloaders, they are really have no more advantage then the traditional rifles without the scopes. People that doubt this need to watch some of these old timers with their hawkins sporting peep sights shoot steel targets at 200 yards. It is amazing to say the least.

As for ignition. Modern inlines with 209 primers have an advantage in wet weather, but anyone who has shot traditional rifles for any length of time, really does not get all that concerned about a rain, sleet, or snow day when hunting. Why? They know how to weatherize the rifle. If you take care of the traditional, even those #11 caps will fire and so will the flintlocks. It is all a matter of how well you know your rifles, and their limitations. If you know your sport, you can make a traditional shoot as dependable as an inline.

The one advantage of the modern inline is the improved barrels with the faster twist and the projectiles that can be used out of them. Lets face it, sabots with a hot load and a fast twist seem to fly better at longer ranges. Yet, I can order a drop in barrel from Green Mountain Barrel Company for my T/C Hawkins or Renegade, that will also shoot sabots and big conicals, and you would never know I had it if you looked at the rifle.

Also I have some 1:70 twist rifles that shooting roundball do a very impressive job for open sights at 100 yards. I never considered a muzzleloader a long range rifle. The longest shot I have ever made with a muzzleloader was about 90 yards give or take a yard. And that was with a .54 caliber T/C Renegade.

Personally I do not see inlines as much of an advantage. I do see them as a way for those that do not have the time or desire to devote to the sport of traditional black powder shooting, an oppertunity to take an easier approach to black powder shooting and still get some extra hunting and range time in. They can buy an inline, work up an acceptable load and then hunt or target shoot without learning all the little things that to me make muzzleloading so much fun.

I own three modern inlines and love to shoot them. I find it a challenge to see how accurate I can get with a rifle at a given distance. And yes, some of them will shoot impressive groups. But the two that are not scoped are no more impressive then some of my Hawkin rifles with open sights.

Inlines are just that... a different kind of rifle. I do not see them as a threat to the black powder sport. I do not see them as taking over the black powder sport. There will always be traditional shooters....

I also see them as a way to increase our numbers in the black powder field of sports, a way to increase out hunting and shooting voice to those that make our laws, and also an open door. By this I mean they have experienced the smell and boom of the muzzleloader, then they get around some traditional shooter, maybe even try a rifle or two. Next thing you know, they are buying a traditional rifle and learning all the little secrets of the sport....

m.t.hands

whats your question, first you sound like your downing the guys using them and then you say your wife is looking at you funny while your looking at them, if it seems like an unfair advantage go to the traditional bow hunting page and tell them your thinking about buying a compound bow, but i'm having a hard time understanding what you want to know.

, those are the rules, there not saying you have to do that but you have the option, use a shotgun , use a traditional gun hell use a bow, if you want to be a purest build another gun but this time make the barrel, cut the tree for the stock, do some smith work for a trigger, that would be blacksmith work, and hunt with that. i don't care what you hunt with if the state you live in has determined it's leagal, my state, Alabama, has declared crossbows leagal, do i have one, no, do i want one, no. i'd rather use my compound, its all a matter of choice and the crossbow would not extend my season, but i dont mind that other people like the idea...............

metro

[quote]So, did the new craze of modern muzzle loaders start because of the loopholes it offered for an earlier or longer season, greater ease of procuring a tag and being able to use them in shotgun only states?



Theres the question, looks pretty clear to me. And I'm not downing anyone, just asking questions and stating some points of view regarding something that interests me. Is'nt that what these forums are for?

Metro

m.t.hands

yes, sorry if i offended you,


many states centerfire rifles are not leagal, and the performance of most inlines is greater than a slug gun, hunt with what you enjoy, i'll hunt with whats leagal and gives me the most hours outdoors thats what i enjoy!!!!

good night and have a great rest of the season

metro

Yeah I'm all for taking the law to it's limit, thats what intriuged me with the muzzle loader. The other night at the gun store when I was buying my Uberti I met a Marine stationed at camp Pendleton from New York and he was saying they are a muzzle loader state. I actually had never heard of that and although i don't know the effective range of a 12 guage slug it can't be anywhere near 200 yards. I think the word "loophole" may have a bad conotation but I see it as an ingenious way to use the law in your favor. Another interesting tidbit is that I believe Cabellas can ship them directly to the customer bypassing the FFL dealer. There are many cool things about these guns that have my credit card starting to vibrate.

Metro...


Metro...

Paul L Mohr

I think the inlines originally were devoleped to be more reliable and easier to clean. The performance thing just sort of came along with it. You could get the same performance out of a side lock if you used a barrel that could handle the charge and had the twist rate (green mountain barrels).

The inlines just fire more consistantly because the ingnition time is shorter and travels in a straight line. Plus they are waay easier to clean or get a fouled charge out of.

I hate it when people compare them to centerfire rifles. I have owned both, my inline ML is deffinately not a center fire!

I will do some research on it when I get time and see what I can turn up on the net.

Paul