driftrider

I agree with the idea that Savage ought to publish strict load limits for the 10ML. Nonetheless, the manual does imply that 46grains is max for 5744 powder, yet Bridges admits to repeatedly loading 48 grains and finally 49 grains of this powder and blew the gun up. As I said before, this is neither Savage or the 10ML's fault. The blame rests squarely on Bridges shoulders.

Any (intelligent) handloader knows that 2-3 grains over max in any CF firearm is VERY dangerous and would not be one bit surprised when the gun came apart in their hands. Yet there are Savage owners like Bridges who willingly push the envelope and then when something bad happens have the nerve to blame it on vague language in the manual. How very ambulance-chasing-trial-lawyerish of them.

IMO, if Savage is at all to blame in this, it is because they assumed that only wise and cautious people would buy the 10ML, so they didn't have their lawyers write the manual for them. Unfortunately, as seems to frequently be the case theses days, when a manual isn't spelled out Barney-style they read and see what they want, and do what they shouldn't.

It's my opinion that is people want to push the limits, fine, wildcatters have been doing it for generations. But when you do push the limits and something bad happens, you've no one to blame but yourself.

As far as my belief that the 10ML can't be blown up, I will readily admit that I was wrong and now stand corrected. I, too, underestimated the ability of a sabot to withstand extreme pressures, but apparently the latest generation of muzzleloader sabots can withstand it long enough to allow pressures get high enough to destroy the gun. However, being wise enough to only think of sabot failure as a last failsafe, I choose (as do most who shoot the 10ML) to limit my loads to within the Savage recommended load data. A 250grain SST/ML at 2230fps with 10% REDUCED LOADS of N110 is fast enough for me. The bonus is that this gun will achieve this velocity and STILL BE ACCURATE. I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard someone complain that their Knight (or whatever) wasn't accurate with 150gr loads (which with a 250grain bullet will BARILY come close to these numbers). In fact, I just heard it from a guy at the range yesterday. He just bought a Knight Revolution, and it won't group worth a crap with over 100 grains of T7. He even called Knight and they flat told him that 150 grains is the max acceptable load, but cartainly not the most accurate load. Needless to say that I am very happy with the performance of the 10ML-II. It's a good gun, it's strong, accurate, clean, almost completely blowback free, economical (T7 and Pyrodex is a ripoff, and the pellets are just plain highway robbery), requires no intensive cleaning to prevent corrosion, can be shot before hunting season and safely left fouled for best accuracy, no swabbing between shots, and is VERY powerful even when loaded within factory published limits.

Mike

sabinajiles

I don't want to imply that Savage is to blame for this incident, or any others that might have occured with their rifles. I agree that if one pushes the limits, they should not be surprised if an accident occurs. You are correct that legal litigation has made it necessary for manufacturers to take great care to save some people from themselves. I do believe that Savage has a moral obligation to make sure that owners, and potential owners, of their rifles do not have false notions about the safety and durability of their rifles and I think they have been lax in doing this. They also need to publically address any safety issues, even those from misuse, in a timely manner and I don't see them doing this either. Yes, it might hurt sales in the short term, but it is the right thing to do and in the long run it will help their image and sales.

It appears that the Savage is certainly one of the best engineered and manufactured inlines but quite honestly, I really don't care for any inline muzzleloaders as I am more of a traditionalist, although I am not a strict traditionalist. I will not use a modern inline because it is not my thing but I won't berate those that do. However, I do admit that I really don't believe that any muzzleloader should be using smokeless powder. I agree that T7 and pellets are a ripoff but I also think sabots and jacketed bullets are a ripoff. Loose Pyrodex is reasonable as it can be purchased here for the same price as black powder(which I use), which is $12-13 a lb. I don't know the exact economics of shooting saboted bullets with smokeless powder but I'll bet that my loads of patched, handcast round balls and black powder are much cheaper, per shot. I'm not trying to argue firearm choice here but just stating that if economics is a primary factor then an inline shouldn't even be considered.

I certainly don't want this to be a traditional vs modern muzzleloader argument either. My views of the Savage, and the accidents with them, has nothing to do with my choice of firearms. I would feel the same way, and would have the same opinions, if the Savage failures, or any other brand of muzzleloader failures, including those brands which I own, were caused by black powder loads, with all other factors being the same.

Good hunting to you!


Harry

HighDesertWolf

Yea but apparently the Savage ML is proofed to "129,000 Psi" I guarentee 49 grains of 5744 is not even nearing that in the Savage ML's chamber I would say 60,000 to 65,000 Psi Tops but it proabably doesnt even reach that. I emailed Toby an asked about one of the other Savage ML's that blew up on another person he mentioned in his website heres a cut and paste of from his repy in my E-mail box:

Anthony,

He said it was not from a recalled lot.

The problem with LIL GUN is that at least 50-percent
of the granules are under .015" diameter...with a
large -percentage under .010" in diameter. The
ignition system of the Savage muzzleloader has a .030"
orifice forthe fire to reach the powder.

This particular shooter surmised that some of these
"fines" had filtered through to the primer side of the
breech plug...creating much, much hotter ignition. He
came to that conclusion when he realized that the load
that did cause him the problem came from the "bottom"
of the cannister...where the really fine powder
settles.

It was more a case of the wrong powder in the wrong
gun.

Toby

I almost wonder if something like that is possible with the 5744 I doubt it but if one would push to hard when seating the bullet it could crumble some of the granules and possibly fit in the flash hole which would cause the priming to be to hot. In my Opinion still, double based nitrocellulose powders have no business in muzzle loading.

HighDesertWolf

I recieved another email from toby, he has figured out the savage ML's flaw and its makes alot of sense heres his reply to me

Anthony,

The Model 10ML II breeching system is 95% there.

If Savage would just thread that breech plug all the
way to the end of the snout, then tap the recess in
the barrel with a bottom tap, the plug and bore would
fit together with a gas-tight seal (as it should) and
Savage wouldn't have a problem.

Toby