driftrider

Or perhaps Toby's change of heart is akin to the pilot who survives a plane crash and never flys again, denouncing human flight as unsafe. Even if some part of the plane failed causing the crash doesn't mean that all aircraft of that type are dangerous. And lets not discount "pilot error."

Bridges was intentionally overloading the gun, and admits it. Like the saying goes, "if you play with fire, sooner or later you're going to be burned." He regularly played with fire by pushing the gun beyond its limits, and he got burned. Thankfully it didn't cause him serious injury or death. I'd bet that if someone regularly and intentionally shot 200+ grains of T7 in their BPI ML they'd blow it up too, but that wouldn't mean that the gun was unsafe with a recommended 100gr load.

People are quick to accept the explanation that the blown up Winchester (BPI) was due to a defective gun, and it may well have been. Has anyone considered that the Savage in question was made with a defect that went undetected in the proofing process. A tiny microfracture of the steel in the barrel, after hundreds of shots, many of which were overloaded, could have turned the minor defect into what we see in those pictures.

I guess my point is that there is insufficient evidence to indicate that the Savage 10ML is unsafe because of four reports of failure, at least two of which involved the shooter intentionally loading the gun with powders or powder quantities in not recommended in the manual and proven safe. The other two failures are of unknown cause. So we have four reported failures, two of which were partially or completely the fault of the shooters and two that are unsubstanciated reports where the cause is unknown. Yet Savage has made and sold THOUSANDS of 10ML's in the 5 years since they were introduced. That being the case the catastrophic failure rate from all causes (human and otherwise) is well under 1%, and more likely around 0.1% or less. Toby himself states he's fired more than 35,000 shots with an 10ML and smokeless powder. One failure out of 35,000 shots fired works out to 0.0029%. Sounds pretty safe to me.

I would also like to know just how much bad blood there is no between Bridges and Savage. That might also have something to do with his change of tune.

Mike

Triple Se7en

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Driftrider

I don't keep up-to-date with smokeless MLs because I personally believe that if you want NOT to see smoke, then stick with the centerfires for best results.. even in conditions that occur once every 15-20 years where you wish you had that extra 25-50 yard distance to reach that distant buck in the field.

Can you break-down for me how much more powder Toby was using in comparison to a regular ML -- that he shouldn't of used?
For instance: Was he approximently 20 grains of blackpowder too much... 10 .. or 30... etc.

The reason I ask is because the number of grains you provided didn't seem like alot in comparison to regular ML powders -- which a person can almost double before a barrel blows up while the bullet is properly seated.

Was Toby using 25-75% more powder than he should of? If your answer is only 25%, then Savage muzzleloaders are indeed dangerous because their tolerances for barrel blowups should be 50-100% more powder before it blows.

These are my opinions Savage lovers... no replier-attacks please!

bigcountry

driftrider, Very good post and very true. We don't know all the facts.

I mean, would you buy a 44mag off me, that I regularly loaded 240gr cast bullets with 26gr of H110 instead of the recommended max of 24gr. And never had a issue of it. besides the primers cratering? I bet you wouldn't.

I knew a guy that loaded regularly, a 30-06 with 3 extra grains of 4350 I believe with 165gr bullets. He said he could easily get 3050fps with this combo and he has shot it 500 times or so. Well one day the action cracked. Fortunately the gun wouldn't fire cause the unnoticed cracked action wouldn't let the fireing pin make contact. That was only 3gr.

bigcountry

Triple, thats almost impossible to do. You really never see more than 30KPSI with BP or 777 or pyrodex. But with smokeless, its a different story. I would guess, I say guess, with his load, he went up in pressure over 90KPSI. Centerfires generally are less than 60K. When you reach max, the pressures get erratic fast. And so does velocity. So 5gr is significant. I would equate it to shooting 150gr of goex in a sidelock only able to handle 16KPSI with 90gr of goex. But thats just a guess.

Striper Phil

Since Toby notes he fired the savage 35000 times or so I think it possible that he double loaded the powder. I work in evaluating incidents and with high repetitions there are always mistakes that the mistakee swears could not have happened. He is a true story. We had trouble with personnel putting the wrong hazard labels or missing a label on outgoing shipments. We instituted that the sign installer take Poloride pictures of each side of the truck for the record. A truck was stopped with no signs installed and the installer was told. The installer swore he installed the proper signs and said lets go look at the pictures I took. As you guessed the pictures he took of the signs showed that all four signs were not put on the truck. It is very common in high repetition work to make incredibly unbelievable mistakes that you just know you could not have made.

driftrider

The recommended load for XMP-5744 is 44 grains. Bridges had shot and undisclosed number of shots at 48 grains (9.1% over max by weight) before firing the 49 grain load (11.4% over max by weight) that blew the gun up.

With smokeless powders, burn rates and pressure levels depend on both the amount of powder, the design of the powder (powder specific burn rate) and also the pressure it's burned at. When pressure levels in a smokeless firearm reach a certain level the burn rate and pressure levels can spike erratically. That's why load manuals for smokeless arms have MAX loads that should NEVER be exceeded under any circumstances by a reloader who lacks a fully equipped ballistics lab with pressure test equipment. The Savage is no different.

With black powder and substitutes the burn rates and pressure curves are very different. And because the BP and volumetric subs are so inefficient and require air to burn (black powder combusts, whereas smokeless powder decomposes), there can be no direct comparison made between the effects of overcharging with T7 and smokeless powder. A 10% overcharge of smokeless can, as Bigcountry mentioned, easily create pressure excursions in on the order of 90,000psi or more.

So yes, the Savage is different and must be loaded more cautiously with more attention to detail than it's black powder shooting cousins. It's no different than the care and attention to detail that a CF smokeless cartridge handload must excercise when loading CF cartridges. But failure on the shooters part to heed published load maxes or excercise due caution when loading a 10ML doesn't make the gun unsafe, it makes the shooter an idiot asking for trouble. Of course, the same could be said for those who knowingly load more that the max recommended loads of T7 and such in their muzzleloaders as well.

The moral of the story is this...if you are unable to take the time to learn how to properly load a Savage, or unwilling to stick with the published loads, then the Savage (and all other ML's in the case of the latter category) are NOT for you. The Savage 10ML-II is for experienced, yet cautious shooters only. Idiots and hot-rodders need not apply. Toby Bridges hsould have known better than to do what he was doing. He pushed the envelop and was rewarded with a blown up rifle. The guy who used 'Lil Gun is in the same boat.

This incident is a classic example of someone deferring blame, a trait common among the anti-gun types, but one that apparently can also be found among gun enthusiests as well. Bridges intentionally and repeatedly overloaded the gun, and then has the gall to call it unsafe and defers fault to the gun and to Savage for his own folly. Bridges has no one to blame but himself, IMO.

Because some of us want the option of both greater performance and most importantly the added convienience of smokeless powder, and cannot use CF rifles to hunt deer (legally) in their state. And regardless of the powder type, the Savage is still a ML with the inherent limitations thereof. Cloud of white smoke or not, I only get one shot just like everybody else. I just don't have to worry about my barrel rusting out overnight if I don't hightail it back home to clean my gun.

Mike

cayugad

I personally agree with driftrider and all the other Savage Owners/users. This goes for anyone that shoots a muzzleloader or rifle for that matter, no matter what brand. The people who make these rifles usually offer what they feel are safe loading procedures and loads they feel the product can handle in a safe manner.

When I read a incident of a rifle blowing up or something terrible happening, I always wonder what the cause was. In the case of Mr. Bridges I think it is clear. He overstepped the capabilities the rifle was able to handle. The result was a blown barrel and thank goodness no one injured.

This incident in my opinion or view in no way reflects on the quality of the Savage rifle. What it should suggest to Savage owners is the need to pay strict attention to the guidelines and loading practices that are set fourth by the company.

HighDesertWolf

I used to live 30 minutes from their Shawnee Mission, KS bottling plant, I have visited it on Occassion ( sometimes you could get a deal on powder) and they Bottle and package everything there. All of Hodgdon's powders are manufactured in Australia and then shipped to Shawnee Mission, KS where it is bottled and packaged. And from what I've heard is on occassion that sombody messes up either by the conatianer that came from australia is mismarked or someone accidently dumps the wrong powder into the hopper prior to bottling. But they usually catch it before hand atleast so they say. I like to think and trust that hodgdon does catch the mistake before any of it leaves the plant since thats about the only powder I use, I use Vectan, clays, tite wad, and tite group. I would say hodgdon has the best and cleanest burning powders.

dog1

Muzz30,

I to appreciate your info. I'm new to MLing and appreciate all info, good or bad.

dog1

sabinajiles

I looked up the load data on the Savage site. The chart gives a weight range of 41-44 grains for the XMP-5744 powder. However, these are referred to as recommended loads and no where is there any mention of a maximum recommended load for it or any of the other powders listed. You could assume the 44 grains is the maximum recomended load, since it is the highest figure listed, but Savage confuses things somewhat by adding a statement that says one should try 1 or 2 grains more, or less, for a particular load. With this in mind, the maximum load listed would be 46 grains, but wouldn't it be clearer, and safer, for Savage to plainly and clearly state a maximum recommended load.

If you read the whole article, you find that one of the other failures was caused by a powder that is not on Savage's load recommendations, yet it was stated that the load was recommended by a Savage engineer. Of course we can't know for sure if it actually was. However, the article does point out another statement in Savage's load recommendations which states that the rifle is "designed, engineered and built to handle the higher pressures of modern smokeless propellants such as those listed". This is somewhat ambiguous and I think Savage should be much clearer on acceptable powders and maximum recommended loads for each.

The thing that really concerns me is that there appears to be a perception among some Savage users that it is virtually impossible to overload the rifle to create a dangerous pressure situation, when using plastic sabots, because the sabots will fail from the high pressure and act as a safety release, therefore avoiding any dangerous pressures in the barrel. I have read this several times, from different persons. Toby was specifically testing for sabot failure and the 48 grain load apparently showed no signs of extreme pressure on the spent primer or recovered sabot, yet the first attempt with the 49 grain load blew up the barrel. With the other pressure related failures, it certainly appears that the sabot will not fail before creating a dangerous situation. There are also stories all over the internet about how Savage purposely abused their rifles, with extreme loads, and could cause no damage. Such stories only add to the dangerous perceptions of some and increase the possibility of an accident.

Lastly, some, including representatives of muzzleloader manufactures other than Savage, have stated that using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, even one designed for it, is a set up for some serious accidents. Many passed this off as sour grapes statements, but I believe it is fair to say that there is much less room for loading error, with smokeless powders, than with blackpowder or substitutes. Since Savage can not control the loading procedures of all those who buy and use their rifles, these statements do have some validity. Therefore, I believe it is paramount that Savage starts to do a better job of safety education, including much more specific load recommendations and actively countering any public misconceptions .