txhunter58

Should be a Taylor index value of about "30" at 100 yards which should be good up to elk size animals. If you look at just the ft/lbs, you would think it was just a marginal load even for deer. Interesting.

Looking at the ballistics charts on the Remington site seems to indicate that the 12 gauge is supierior to the 20 gauge. It looks to me that the bullet design has a lot to do with the good terminal performance you both have been getting. With a bullet that opens up and retains most of its weight, that should add some devestating results. I am curious if the industry will continue to improve the muzzy solids to include better controlled expansion. We will see.

Bigcountry: if you aren't familiar with this website: http://www.monstermuleys.com/ you might check it out and see if any guys on there are using the higher powder loads.

Striper Phil

Thanks for the Taylor index URL I enjoyed it. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but here is my 2 cents. First none of the calculations mean much if there is a pass through because you don’t know how much energy the bullet still has after it exits. Seems to me the stopping or dropping power has more to do with how the bullet enters the animal. I am lucky to have a set up where 9 out ten shots are 100% broadside. This said, if the bullet hits square on a rib the rib explodes and the lung and heart damage is tremendous. The shoulder hit shatters bone early and drops them in their tracks, actually I think it jolts the spine and paralyzes the deer. The bullet has a sphere of energy around it like a shock wave that is an area volume calculation thus the squared function. Had a 270 pass through a 200 lb buck last year just above the heart, never hit any bones and the destruction removed the heart from the connecting arteries and tissue and left the lungs pretty much in tact. Much less damage than a rib bone hit. He went @ 250 yards, I was amazed how far he went. But I guess most of the available shocking energy stayed with the bullet after it exited. After a rib hit the lungs and most of the heart disintegrate. I only remember my 150 gr 270 staying in the deer once. Well the bullet took a left turn inside the deer after a broadside lung shot and wound up in the far side haunch. That one was weird to figure out, in through one rib then out the other side rib cage and back 8 inches or so slid along the skin and came back across the rear guts and stopped in the haunch on the same side as the entrance wound. I mention this because the energy left after the second rib cage penetration was quite a bit. Back to the member who dropped two does, one shot, with pass throughs on both, lots of energy after the first deer hit!!

bigcountry

12Ga slug
3" remington copper solids
1 oz wieght
1550fps MV
2331ft/lbs ME

@100 yards
1100fps
1597ft/lbs

If you think conservativly saying a copper solid is .6" diameter thats around TI=41.1. Not bad.

Lets do another one I have used.
remington corlok ultra
385grwieght
1900fps MV
3086ft/lbs ME

@100 yards
1648fps
2325ft/lbs

TI is 54

This is the reason I and many, many other experienced shooters have poked holes in this theory. The guy puts the dominating factor in the equation on bullet diameter and doesn't take in any effect on hydrostatic trauma. As a engineer, I don't understand this. Why did he put it there with no scaling factor. What bases is it there for. Hey the guy stuck it in the equation to get a finite number. Where the energy equation's dominating effect is velocity, and doesn't take in any effect of bullet diameter and definately not bullet construction. BUT, it is accurate and undisputed scientific equation. I know one thing for fact, I mean fact (in my head), at 100 yards, I could drop a deer like a hammer with a 30-06 compared to a 12ga slug or 50cal muzzleloader. Hands down, no comparison. I also believe, that a 12ga slug or 50cal muzzleloader would at close range, outpenetrate hands down a 30-06 in a huge animal.


For that reason, both the energy equation and the TI is both seriously flawed for using concrete numbers to say "this gun is adequate for tryanisouris or whatever". All I and all you reading can go on is personal experience and use these numbers loosely for a guideline. Classic example is the 45ACP and 357Sig.

mlaubner

Hey tx,
Thanks for the link...interesting reading.
You can never get too much information. This is a classic example of the more I know the dumber I feel
Good Luck and Good Hunting!

txhunter58

You are absolutely right bigcountry. There is no "equation" that will give you the definative "knock down" power. Both are just useful tools for comparison. Again it comes down to the fact that big, slow moving bullets kill in a different way than small fast bullets. You will get no argument from me that the small,fast bullet may be the best tool for putting game down. It certainly is superior to a broadhead. But an elk shot with my setup will be just as dead, no question about that. Maybe he will run a few more yards, but I am having to be a better hunter to get close enough to game to shoot with a muzzy and I may have to be a better tracker to find him, just as I would with a bow and arrow.

If I want 30-06 results and ranges, I hunt seasons that allow me to use a 30-06. These are my limitations put on me by myself, you do what you want.

By the way, I measured my 20 and 12 gauge and the internal diameter of the 20 was .625 and the 12 was almost .75. Really big bores!

bigcountry

Wow, that would mean a 12Ga slug has a TI much higher than I predicted. Guess thats why people use them for bear backup.

Well, anyway, it was a good discussion. I have a feeling I will not be able to shoot 150gr loads. Haven't tried it yet. Don't know too many people that has gotten good accuacy with the full house loads. I figure it will be around 130gr loads. I tried 777 when it first came out with No11 percussion caps, and it fouled my nipple so bad, I had to take it apart and cleaned wthin 5 rounds. Has anything changed with it? Figured the slower 777 would work better with my new 26" barrel. Thought maybe the 209primer will keep the thing from fouling the breech plug. I also have tried the powerbelts several times with my wolverine with no luck. Going to try 300gr SST's first then all the rest.

txhunter58

I have fired as many as 18 shots through my Omega with 209 primers and 777 with no problem with fouling.

txhunter58

By the way, I was surprised to see that the 12 gauge 1 oz solid kicked my muzzy load in the butt on the Taylor Index. Of course, it is due to the bullet diameter, which is weighted much heavier in this equation. No wonder you have seen good results with this load.

mlaubner

Hey bigcountry,
Have you given these a try yet?
I am looking to test these out before the season!

bigcountry

mlaub, are you taking about the dead center bullet? I have never tried them. I like the looks and BC of the SST's. I am still trying to figure out thesee precision "dead center" bullets. I am all about extending my ranges in Black Water refuge for Sika deer. I see those critters out there 200 yards, but wouldn't attempt a shot with ML or Slug.