All that time casting.....
12-31-2015, 05:48 PM
#31
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Paradise
Posts: 23,428
CI,
Of course I reiterate that the RB is a bad choice. This position is confirmed by the data I post. I am not Lyman Products Corporation, I publish no books. I am not Sam Fadala, I write no books. I am not affiliated in any way with any other providers of published data whom I have quoted, I merely quote them. My position is not circular, it is based upon the work of others. The facts don't change. I suspect that some of the frustration of other members is due the fact that there is no quotable body of work that refutes what I have said. And what I have said is not merely a personal opinion. It should be easy to point out errors in my postings, and reply, "OldBob, you're full of BS!" It is much more difficult, and in this case I suspect impossible, to argue with the compiled data of experts in the field.
So, in my mind, I am not "flaming." I bear no ill will to anyone here. Let me quote someone else, author unknown: "Ask opinions of other hunters on NEW technology, GEAR, and methods of blackpowder hunting." Note the emphasis. The stated philosophy of the forum seems incongruent with the continued usage of outdated, and inferior, equipment. That's why I was so surprised to find a discussion on RB, of all things. If statutes restrict you to their use, then you have no choice. For those who are not so limited, I can't see any good reason to use this relic of the smoothbore era.
So if you want to accuse me of flaming, and have me banned, I have no recourse. The facts are the facts, though, and I will never make any statement to deny them, regardless of who may be offended. "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." -Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
OldBob
Of course I reiterate that the RB is a bad choice. This position is confirmed by the data I post. I am not Lyman Products Corporation, I publish no books. I am not Sam Fadala, I write no books. I am not affiliated in any way with any other providers of published data whom I have quoted, I merely quote them. My position is not circular, it is based upon the work of others. The facts don't change. I suspect that some of the frustration of other members is due the fact that there is no quotable body of work that refutes what I have said. And what I have said is not merely a personal opinion. It should be easy to point out errors in my postings, and reply, "OldBob, you're full of BS!" It is much more difficult, and in this case I suspect impossible, to argue with the compiled data of experts in the field.
So, in my mind, I am not "flaming." I bear no ill will to anyone here. Let me quote someone else, author unknown: "Ask opinions of other hunters on NEW technology, GEAR, and methods of blackpowder hunting." Note the emphasis. The stated philosophy of the forum seems incongruent with the continued usage of outdated, and inferior, equipment. That's why I was so surprised to find a discussion on RB, of all things. If statutes restrict you to their use, then you have no choice. For those who are not so limited, I can't see any good reason to use this relic of the smoothbore era.
So if you want to accuse me of flaming, and have me banned, I have no recourse. The facts are the facts, though, and I will never make any statement to deny them, regardless of who may be offended. "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." -Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
OldBob
12-31-2015, 05:51 PM
#32
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 146
Daniel Boone died at the age of 85, conicals weren't around then, this was during the period of Longhunters...During his lifetime he killed thousands of deer along with buffalo, elk and other game...Those of us that actually want to learn how to use flintlocks stay as close to traditional as we can...
If you are going to use a flintlock, why in the hell would you use anything other than a round ball???
If you are going to use a flintlock, why in the hell would you use anything other than a round ball???
I look at it differently (surprise!). If I were to use a RB, why would I use anything but a smoothbore? This is getting to be quite an itch for me.
However, you're right, in the days of DB the roundball was much more common, as were smoothbores. I suspect conicals were around, but not popular because of increased loading difficulty. In the early 19th century, several attempts were made to come up with an easy-loading conical, most famously the minie. The first widespread use that I know of that projectile was during the Civil War. During that War, army surgeons were horrified and overwhelmed by the severity of the wounds made by the conicals, compared to the wounds from RB. Read some accounts of this, rather than take my word.
Unfortunately, this battlefield proficiency did not translate well to the game fields. The conical proved to be an ineffective killer, and in some cases was known to bounce off the side of the Whitetail Deer, allowing Bambi to bound away unscathed.
OK, I was having a bit of fun there. The minie had a relatively short period as a battle projectile, being rapidly supplanted post-Civil War by solid base bullets, as easy loading from the muzzle was no longer required due to the wholesale transition to breech loading weapons. As far as I know, the RB was never again part of the US Army's small arms planning. It had been superceded by projectiles of demonstrably superior performance. Why is that lesson difficult to fathom?
OldBob
12-31-2015, 06:07 PM
#33
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
Even though the mini ball was invented for war. The civilians stayed with the PRB for their hunting. A lot of them stayed with the PRB even after the smokeless cartridges were invented.
Nothing has changed.
Nothing has changed.
12-31-2015, 06:10 PM
#34
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 146
Well Bob I tried and apparently didn't reach you through reason. My intention is to nip any issues in the bud that could affect members adversely. You have entered into discussions with many here on the site on a variety of threads and always manage to work in your opinion that PRB is something that shouldn't be used. The traditional members who have worked with that technology for years resent someone who has no practical experience with PRB telling them that they are doing something wrong. I posted the rule and hope all the members that frequent the forum will engage in meaningful discussion but not attempt to flame. A word of advice to everyone...there is an ignore button which can be used to avoid seeing posts that are offensive or otherwise not wanted.
Let me recap: Jon starts a thread about casting some roundballs, which turn out to be the wrong size for his brother's Hawken. By some miracle, I remember that I may, and in fact do, have a .530 RB mold. I offer it to Jon. I don't put it in the for sale section, because I am not selling it, I'm gifting it, not charging for postage either. Clem says that he might want it, if Jon doesn't. He mentions that he has used the GP in another rifle, and was contemplating the possibility that he might also use it in the new rifle he's getting. I post data that supports this action, showing why that choice is so much better.
I did not throw this out there out of the blue. I did so in response to a conversation I was having. That's what we're supposed to be doing here, helping each other. The conversation, as it developed, went in directions that ruffled some feathers. For me to avoid doing that in this case, I would have to lie or not offer my help.
OldBob
12-31-2015, 06:22 PM
#36
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Paradise
Posts: 23,428
Bob it is admirable you were willing to part with a mold and I certainly am not saying to limit meaningful discussions. I have watched you for several days/ weeks now continue to inject your opposition to PRB even when the subject isn't about them. I think everyone here knows your opinions. The term flaming means to deliberately pick fights and that is a violation of the rules. Please follow them.
12-31-2015, 06:40 PM
#37
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 146
.50-70
Maybe those who were so dirt poor that they couldn't afford the surplus .50-70s that the Army was blowing out, which were being replaced by the .45-70s. This is why the Sharps was called the "Big Fifty", as it was bigger than a .50-70.
Hey, a lot of nice pictures, and a darned pretty rifle! I'm not going to get into a long response....Edited by Champlain Islander...
May the New Year be even better than this one has been!
OldBob
Last edited by Champlain Islander; 12-31-2015 at 06:43 PM. Reason: flaming warning given
12-31-2015, 06:42 PM
#38
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,762
Bob it is admirable you were willing to part with a mold and I certainly am not saying to limit meaningful discussions. I have watched you for several days/ weeks now continue to inject your opposition to PRB even when the subject isn't about them. I think everyone here knows your opinions. The term flaming means to deliberately pick fights and that is a violation of the rules. Please follow them.
We all know Bob's opinion on the PRB. But those of us who have used them effectively, in some cases as the only legal projectile know how well they perform within their given limits. Yes, there are many other projectiles out there that out perform the PRB and the facts prove it. But another fact is that deer haven't become the super creatures that some people make them out to be. Not only in the ML world but also in the CF world as well. We now have bonded bullets, all copper or copper alloy bullets and other premium bullets that many hunters think they HAVE to have to kill a puny deer. But the simple fact remains - any projectile that will penetrate the vitals will dispatch any animal. And shot placement is far more important than a large wound channel in a non vital area.