RedAllison

I' ve been an Omega fan for the last couple of seasons but the other day it was brought to my attention that Savage has a few smokeless loads for their muzzleloader that with light bullets will do 3k fps. That is AWESOME and in a gun that wouldnt require that annoying soap, water and sulpher smell MESS after each time out. Anyone in here have one of these rifles and tried these loads? I know that Knights are a lil finicky about lightweight, high velocity loads. How does the Savages do under such conditions?

(Evil thoughts and snickers abound as I think of such performance and then only having to brush the gun out ever so often!) [>:][>:][>:]
RA

herman

Check out the savage muzzleloading message board and US hunting forms,lots of info there.

Underclocked

Sorry, but I' m one of those guys that thinks the use of true smokeless is going one step too far in the muzzleloader realm - at least so far as qualifying for muzzleloader seasons. Might as well be shooting a Ruger #1, IMO.

But, if you want to visit a good site for your interest, you might take a look at hpmuzzleloading.com .

1SHOT_1KILL

Check out http://www.sav10ml.com It has a ton of info as well. It also has a link to Doug' s Savage Muzzleloader Message board. Doug' s message board is, without any doubt, the largest single and most comprehensive, place to get info about the Savage 10ML-II.

RandyWakeman

I used to have much the same view, Underclocked-- but I was dead wrong. It was narrow-minded and pathetic of me to quickly dismiss the Savage. By the way, did I say I was wrong? Completely wrong? Horrifically wrong-headed? I most certainly was.

It was the antics of other muzzleloading companies and powder companies that helped open my eyes, for it has been their own self-serving propaganda and two-faced brags that illuminated them for what they are-- companies that do not like competition, and serve only their own interests. I don' t blame them, but that is the situation.

Let' s talk about non-4473 arms. The Huntsman and Encore are firearms. The Savage ML-10 II is non-GCA arm, and Savage went though hoops to satisfy the ATF in that regard.

The Savage burns powder-- not flammable, synthetic solid pellets. That alone makes it at least as valid in the propulsion department. It does so far more economically, with a non-corrosive propellant. Is that bad? What is actually in Triple 7 anyway? Most folks have no idea what they are shooting.

The QC of many muzzleloading companies is lacking. No evidence of that with Savage ML-10 II, and their barrels are proudly shown to handle well over 80,000 PSI. There is nothing unsafe about the Savage at all.

Thompson brags their Encore has the muzzle energy of a 7mm RemMag-- quite loudly. It is not a 7mm Mag, however, and the Savage is not either. However, both are capable of 2300 fps, accurate loads. Where IS the REAL difference?

Hodgdon won' t promote the Savage, and they have a $60 million dollar business to protect. I don' t blame them in the slightest. Non-firearm companies are ill-equipped to compete with the Savage. Non heat treated, extruded Spanish barrels of unknown strength won' t cut it, that' s for sure.

So, no-- 2300 fps out of a Savage (at less cost) being somehow " BAD" vs. a three pellet sizzler producing the same 2300 fps (GOOD!?) is a very, very hard position to defend, or understand. There is no logic in it.

Neither sabot nor game animal cares, or can tell the difference. I can' t either, and I feel at least as smart as a sabot.[&:] Maybe not an elk.

James B

Our state with all the wisdom that only the government can have has made any gun shooting smokless powder illegal for the muzzle loader season. What a crock. It is still a muzzle loader. The season is a muzzle loader season NOT a black powder season. Thier Idea for the season was doe reduction and only antlerless deer can be taken so what difference does it make? Thet also wont allow scopes during the muzzle loader season which is just discriminating against hunters who like myself with older eyes who can,t shoot open sights very well. Trying to shoot open sights with Bifocals is a real joke. You would think they would want the deer to be taken as humanely as possible. Quess not. We are trying to get an ammendment in for at least handicapped hunters like me. With the loss of your master eye what would a low power or even zero magnification scope hurt. Do the want the doe population reduced or not?[:@] They always have left over permits.

RedAllison

James I can cartainly understand such brainless philosophy on behalf of the masterminds in Govt. I ask this, how would the typical game warden know WHAT powder you were shooting? Have you ever heard of anyone being checked strictly for their muzzleloader powder? Do most game wardens even care? I know in TN there is a minimum of 24 caliber for centerfires, but I have NEVER had a game warden tell me they ever checked or even cared about such trivial details. There are several 22s on the market that are MUCH more effective than a 243.

If I were you and had a Savage, I wouldnt hesitate to empty the Pyrodex container and refill it with your favorite smokeless and GO HUNTING! Theres sensible rules and mgmt regulations and seasons that make sense. But nitpicking weapons, tactics and equipment is simple hogwash IMO. To heck with beauracratic lardbutts who wouldnt know a sabot from a croisant. James the simple fact that they outlawed scopes on smokepoles is enough " traditionalness" if you ask me. Heck I even have quick detach scope mounts on my Knight, but must admit I only muzzleload in TN where they are legal. I cant understand why a state that would bother hendering their hunters with such boosheut regulations as blackpowder only and no scopes, why dont they just go ahead and make it strictly primitive and require flintlocks only? I' ll tell you why, because they know that the majority of people wouldnt then bother shooting the old POS. Like you said, most muzzleloading seasons are simply for extra antlerless removal anyway. The majority of deer populations are becoming/already are practically nuisance levels anyway, whats a higher kill rate gonna do other than help the carrying capacity of the land? And as in the case of hunters like James, it actually encourages participation and promotes " equality" amongh hunters who couldnt otherwise use traditional equipment.

Soap and water? Thats for washin my arse, NOT my guns!!!
RA

James B

RA. I totally agree and if I had a savage I would go ahead and use it. I have never even seen a Warden out and around during the Muzzle loader season. It runns from mid Dec until the end of Jan. Thier year is pretty much over by then. I have not pickedd up a Savage yet but I most likely will. I quess you can also shoot regular Black Powder loads in them as well. Good hunting all.

trac209

Not that I' m recommeding this in any way {DON' T TRY THIS AT HOME}but some crazy friends of mine ,I' m not saying I wasn' t there but anyway my friends dad had a cheap muzzleloader with a solid stuck breech plug that always gave him trouble so they decided to experiment a little.they built a holder which the gun could be fired from a safe distance, DID I MENTION DON" T TRY THIS EVER! The safe distance I' m talking about was 400 feet or so.they fired the gun using a 245 gr hornady and imr 3031 smokeless powder with the same load my friend uses for his 308.We fired the gun using a remote controlled pair of pliers my friend built and we thought the gun would be in pieces when we got there, and guess what no damage at all.We even put a bullet on target sort of.So we loaded the gun with a little heavier of a load and a 300 gr bullet and fired again still no visible damage.Needless to say we stopped there.

Underclocked

RW, you never " used to have that same view" , or at least it wasn' t apparent last year when you seemed very new to muzzleloading - you had NO view on the subject as far as I could tell at the time.

It' s a personal limit that I haven' t exceeded. I also prefer large conicals to zippy little saboted bullets. It is NOT " wrong" to have such a view for one' s self - it cannot be so unless contrary to law or one' s own morality. I set my own limits and the use of Lil Gun or any of the other undeniably smokeless powders commonly used in the Savage is not something I crave.

At what point DO we draw the limit and say this just is NOT muzzleloading? It may take a very talented man to load a 30-06 from the muzzle but someone may yet figure out how. Putting the primed case in the breech first is no longer an obstacle as evidenced by Cecil Epp' s Hornet mod to the Encore. Other efforts have preceeded that experiment and more will follow.

Much has been said about the intent of regulators when they first set up Black Powder/Muzzleloader/ Primitive seasons. I don' t know if that is completely relevant as the times and the herds have changed, but there can be little doubt those people then (or even now) ever foresaw any muzzleloader season as a time to use the equivalent of a .270 to harvest deer. Not possible to achieve that performance you say. I say not yet.

So draw your own lines in the sand, but do not tell me mine are wrong. They are merely mine. And when the line between modern centerfires and muzzleloaders is so thin as to disappear (it' s very thin now) perhaps we can eliminate muzzleloaders altogether. I mean, why bother?