Thick & Thin Sabot
07-12-2012, 09:14 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
Thick & Thin Sabot
On the other forum, there has been an ongoing discussion of whether the black sabot are more accurate than the green sabot. Having been away fishing, i felt an urge to shoot, so i did.
This morning 3 different bullet, and 2 different sabot were shot. The rifle was the Mountaineer. The load was 110g BH. Primer was W209. Range was 200 yard. The rest wasn't concrete bench solid, but it was decent with just a tiny bit of cross hair movement. The first shot was taken when there was so so very little breeze on a cold clean barrel; it is marked 1. The temperature when the first shot was 60*. The temperature when the last shot was 65*. A breeze started after the first 10 shots. The aim for the first 10 shots was the lower bull.
The first shot was a 270g Deep Curl in a green crush rib sabot. The second was a 300g Deep Curl in a black crush rib sabot. The third was a green sabot, the fourth was a black sabot, etc. This went on for the first 10 shot. The holes dyed green were punched using a green sabot. The black holes near the bottom bull were punched using a black sabot. The barrel grew warm during these shots, but could always be grabbed and held. Reloading was done casually with no hurry.
After taking the 10 shots at the lower bull, the bullet was switched to a 44 caliber 300g XTP, and the aim was changed to the top bull. The breeze kinda picked up, but was intermittent. Six shots were taken. I think the shot wild right was the third. That shot ruined the group, so i took a sixth. This made for a prettier group measuring less than 3 3/8", if one mentally tosses the wild right shot. At the time, there was a gusting breeze, and the barrel was quite warm.
The first shot on the cold clean barrel was quite much out of the group. If one mentally tosses this shot, one sees a nice tidy group of green measuring 2 3/4".
The green sabot sure did better this morning than the black ones. I wonder why? Yes i do.
This morning 3 different bullet, and 2 different sabot were shot. The rifle was the Mountaineer. The load was 110g BH. Primer was W209. Range was 200 yard. The rest wasn't concrete bench solid, but it was decent with just a tiny bit of cross hair movement. The first shot was taken when there was so so very little breeze on a cold clean barrel; it is marked 1. The temperature when the first shot was 60*. The temperature when the last shot was 65*. A breeze started after the first 10 shots. The aim for the first 10 shots was the lower bull.
The first shot was a 270g Deep Curl in a green crush rib sabot. The second was a 300g Deep Curl in a black crush rib sabot. The third was a green sabot, the fourth was a black sabot, etc. This went on for the first 10 shot. The holes dyed green were punched using a green sabot. The black holes near the bottom bull were punched using a black sabot. The barrel grew warm during these shots, but could always be grabbed and held. Reloading was done casually with no hurry.
After taking the 10 shots at the lower bull, the bullet was switched to a 44 caliber 300g XTP, and the aim was changed to the top bull. The breeze kinda picked up, but was intermittent. Six shots were taken. I think the shot wild right was the third. That shot ruined the group, so i took a sixth. This made for a prettier group measuring less than 3 3/8", if one mentally tosses the wild right shot. At the time, there was a gusting breeze, and the barrel was quite warm.
The first shot on the cold clean barrel was quite much out of the group. If one mentally tosses this shot, one sees a nice tidy group of green measuring 2 3/4".
The green sabot sure did better this morning than the black ones. I wonder why? Yes i do.
07-12-2012, 10:01 AM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 861
My brother in laws Optima shoots the green sabot with .44 cal Xtps really accurately along with my father in laws Omega. Never compared the two sabots so can't really tell which one does better but can't imagine asking for much more accuracy wise. I was thinking about giving the new Hornady .430" 265 grain FTX a try out of my Triumph.
07-12-2012, 11:25 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
As Del has suggested and since he is one of the folks that makes and tests them:
With the last statement being the key statement and also the statement that I have found to be more often true. Certainly not always but for the most part correct.
I have shoot a lot of 44 cal bullets in a 50 ML and again for the most part and for me they ARE accurate but in most cases a 45 cal or even a .458 has proven to have the most consistent accuracy over all.
I suppose one reason for that might be you have a selection of many different sizes of 45-50 cal sabots and if or when you find the correct one for your barrel - accuracy is the winner - as not all barrels are created equal. You really do not have the wide selection of sabots with the 44-50's.
I think one other reason that this accuracy may increase with the 45/.458 and one that Del does not mention in his posts, the 50 and the 458 both went through an engineering design change in and manufacturing that increases their physical strength yet allows them to get off the bullet quickly and smoothly.
You can sometimes even see this if you are able to watch as a by-stander the flight path of a 44 cal sabot as it leaves the bullet. I think you will see that there are times that you will see a 44 sabots take a really weird path as it leaves the bullet and in most cases the 50 or 458 sabot remains musch more uniform..
Back in 1985 we introduced the 50 X 44 green sabot. At the time 44 caliber bullets was a no brainer decision for me. If I recall correctly there were two 45 caliber pistol bullets readily available and nine 44 caliber pistol bullets available that we determined were suitable for deer size game. Some 4 years later a better selection of 45 caliber bullets began to show up.
During development of the 50 X 45 sabot we also experimented with the broader selection of polymers that were becoming available.
I went through a large learning curve during those first 5 years of making sabots.
Comparative accuracy between 44 and 45 caliber bullets in 50 caliber rifles....the 45 caliber bullet gets the nod based on 25 plus years of shooting sabots. However, it is a small statical advantage and has little or nothing to do when it comes to "minute of deer". I have also shot a few 50 cal rifles that preferred 44 over 45 cal bullets.
Plastics manufacturers continue to improve and expand their product lines and we test formulations that may be suitable, often with success.
We continue learning as we go and hopefuly progressing. I believe I learned more from customers over the years than any other source. Del
During development of the 50 X 45 sabot we also experimented with the broader selection of polymers that were becoming available.
I went through a large learning curve during those first 5 years of making sabots.
Comparative accuracy between 44 and 45 caliber bullets in 50 caliber rifles....the 45 caliber bullet gets the nod based on 25 plus years of shooting sabots. However, it is a small statical advantage and has little or nothing to do when it comes to "minute of deer". I have also shot a few 50 cal rifles that preferred 44 over 45 cal bullets.
Plastics manufacturers continue to improve and expand their product lines and we test formulations that may be suitable, often with success.
We continue learning as we go and hopefuly progressing. I believe I learned more from customers over the years than any other source. Del
"Forgive me if this has been discussed numerous times in the past but somewhere long ago I read that for .50 cal ml, the .45 cal bullet was favored over the .44 cal bullet because it's thinner walled sabot would grip into the rifling grooves better to impart spin."
Imparting spin or sabot/bullet rotation requires very little in interference fit. A proper loaded diameter sabot/bullet combination will impart spin. Thicker or thinner sabot wall will not contribute in any way to the process of imparting spin.
A thinner walled sabot opens at the muzzle and separates from the bullet quicker than a thick wall. IMHO clean quick separation contributes to accuracy
Imparting spin or sabot/bullet rotation requires very little in interference fit. A proper loaded diameter sabot/bullet combination will impart spin. Thicker or thinner sabot wall will not contribute in any way to the process of imparting spin.
A thinner walled sabot opens at the muzzle and separates from the bullet quicker than a thick wall. IMHO clean quick separation contributes to accuracy
I have shoot a lot of 44 cal bullets in a 50 ML and again for the most part and for me they ARE accurate but in most cases a 45 cal or even a .458 has proven to have the most consistent accuracy over all.
I suppose one reason for that might be you have a selection of many different sizes of 45-50 cal sabots and if or when you find the correct one for your barrel - accuracy is the winner - as not all barrels are created equal. You really do not have the wide selection of sabots with the 44-50's.
I think one other reason that this accuracy may increase with the 45/.458 and one that Del does not mention in his posts, the 50 and the 458 both went through an engineering design change in and manufacturing that increases their physical strength yet allows them to get off the bullet quickly and smoothly.
You can sometimes even see this if you are able to watch as a by-stander the flight path of a 44 cal sabot as it leaves the bullet. I think you will see that there are times that you will see a 44 sabots take a really weird path as it leaves the bullet and in most cases the 50 or 458 sabot remains musch more uniform..
Last edited by sabotloader; 07-12-2012 at 03:52 PM.
07-12-2012, 11:40 AM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,410
My favorite muzzleloader bullets are .44 caliber. When fired from my CVA StagHorn and TC Black Diamond the 240 grain .430 XTP and the 225 grain Barnes XPB are more accurate when fired from the short black sabot. They are also more accurate than any .45 bullet i've ever tried.
Your results may differ.
Your results may differ.
07-12-2012, 12:48 PM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
Well...My Knight loves the .430 XTPs in 300gr...It hates the .451 XTPs in 300gr...
I'll stick to the .430s as that what my rifle likes...I've also sighted in 3 other inlines in the past year for family and friends...I used the .430s in all as I was the one supplying the bullets...Now, some did prefer the 240s over the 300s in .430 caliber but all were plenty accurate for deer hunting...Finding the right powder charge was the key...
One reason I prefer the .430s, look at the ballistic coefficient over a .451 in a 300gr hollowpoint...They are close to the 250gr SSTs we all tried a few years back trying to get flatter trajectories...
I'll stick to the .430s as that what my rifle likes...I've also sighted in 3 other inlines in the past year for family and friends...I used the .430s in all as I was the one supplying the bullets...Now, some did prefer the 240s over the 300s in .430 caliber but all were plenty accurate for deer hunting...Finding the right powder charge was the key...
One reason I prefer the .430s, look at the ballistic coefficient over a .451 in a 300gr hollowpoint...They are close to the 250gr SSTs we all tried a few years back trying to get flatter trajectories...
07-12-2012, 01:35 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,607
I have found the .44s to be more accurate for me as well. Specifically the .430 300g XTP. It seems to shoot more accurately in all the guns I own over the .452 versions.
I understand the logic behind why .45s should be more accurate, but real life experience has not proven that for me.
I understand the logic behind why .45s should be more accurate, but real life experience has not proven that for me.
07-13-2012, 07:31 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
It was 54* at 4700' this morning. The air was just so barely moving. Took along the Mountaineer, 44 caliber 300g xtp, 45 caliber 300g xtp magnum, W209 primer, vials with 110g BH, and 2 color of crush rib sabot. Shot the green sabot first, then the black, then the green, then......................... Quit after only 7 shot, because i forgot to bring the camera. Did not call the third shot using the green sabot, it felt good, but for some reason it flew away. The range was 200 yard.
07-14-2012, 08:21 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
It was 57* at 4700' this morning. The air was just so barely moving. Took along the Mountaineer, 44 caliber 300g xtp, 45 caliber 300g xtp magnum, W209 primer, vials with 110g BH, and 2 color of crush rib sabot. Range was 200 yard. Shot the green sabot first, then the black, then the green, then......................... After 6 shot, a walk was taken out to 200 yard, and the target photographed. The shooter probably walked about 500 yard out and back.
Ten more shots were taken, alternating green and black sabot. No intentional wait was taken between shots. The barrel was hot, but one could grab and hold on with semi-comfort.
Only conclusion i can make is the green sorta lean left, and the black sorta lean right. Also, it seems the shooter doesn't shoot so good, after walking 500 or so yard.
The first shot from the cold clean barrel was the most accurate green. The second shot was the most accurate black.
07-15-2012, 09:00 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
Yesterday was to be my last post comparing sabot. However, with the Fish & Game Commission now considering allowing 1X scope during muzzy season, i wanted to see how the X7 without the QLA is shooting now, because i am kinda fired up about being able to use a 1X scope for muzzy hunting.
This morning it was 76* at 4700'. Brought the X7 without QLA, 270g Deep Curl, 300g Deep Curl, vials filled with 110g BH powder, W209 primer, green crush rib sabot, black crush rib sabot. Set the target at 200 yard, and shot the 300g 45 caliber Deep Curl 3 times in succession. Then shot the 270g 44 caliber Deep Curl 3 times. Walked to the target, and photographed it.
Then, because i am kinda excited about using a scope for muzzy season, i dialed the power of the scope down to 1.5X. This scope has a real thick reticle, and it covered nearly all of the target paper 8 1/2" height. Then i shot them target with alternating shots. The breeze picked up after 3 shots, so shooting stopped after 4 shots. The shots taken at 1.5 power are dyed yellow.
In conclusion, there doesn't seem to be much difference in accuracy between the thin or thick sabot.
This morning it was 76* at 4700'. Brought the X7 without QLA, 270g Deep Curl, 300g Deep Curl, vials filled with 110g BH powder, W209 primer, green crush rib sabot, black crush rib sabot. Set the target at 200 yard, and shot the 300g 45 caliber Deep Curl 3 times in succession. Then shot the 270g 44 caliber Deep Curl 3 times. Walked to the target, and photographed it.
Then, because i am kinda excited about using a scope for muzzy season, i dialed the power of the scope down to 1.5X. This scope has a real thick reticle, and it covered nearly all of the target paper 8 1/2" height. Then i shot them target with alternating shots. The breeze picked up after 3 shots, so shooting stopped after 4 shots. The shots taken at 1.5 power are dyed yellow.
In conclusion, there doesn't seem to be much difference in accuracy between the thin or thick sabot.
