Science project report (long)
03-25-2012, 08:44 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
Ok....there you have it. My thoughts...
I was totally impressed with the Big all lead bullets...amazed actually. (in fact, ALL the all lead bullets did well)
The Barnes and Nosler Partition did EXACTLY what they are designed to do.
The XTP's & Shockwaves did great, which goes along with the overall reports on them.
The Knight bullets, which I shoot personally (Speer 260's jacketed hp)...did well, which I knew they would. I've had excellent performance on live game with them over the years -- even though they are listed as "plinkers" on Speer's website, not as "hunting" rounds.
Here is a pic of the only one I ever recovered, most blow right through. Never had one get away, most don't go far at all...some are DRT. I guess we should have listed the % expansion as 177% or 77% gain. You get the picture.
I was totally impressed with the Big all lead bullets...amazed actually. (in fact, ALL the all lead bullets did well)
The Barnes and Nosler Partition did EXACTLY what they are designed to do.
The XTP's & Shockwaves did great, which goes along with the overall reports on them.
The Knight bullets, which I shoot personally (Speer 260's jacketed hp)...did well, which I knew they would. I've had excellent performance on live game with them over the years -- even though they are listed as "plinkers" on Speer's website, not as "hunting" rounds.
Here is a pic of the only one I ever recovered, most blow right through. Never had one get away, most don't go far at all...some are DRT. I guess we should have listed the % expansion as 177% or 77% gain. You get the picture.
Last edited by WV Hunter; 03-25-2012 at 08:56 AM.
03-25-2012, 08:52 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
I was suprised at the poor performance of some of the bullets, including the Lehighs. Not sure why they are designed to perform like they do.
The Deep Curl's puzzled me big time. The 240's did AWESOME... the 250 & 180....wow. Interstingly...both the bad ones were exactly the same bullet design. On the 240, the copper jacket fully wrapped the hollow point...on the 250 & 180, it only partially folded over into the hp. You can see the difference. I was shocked actually.
Really, imo....most of the bullets had satisfactory performance, obviously some better than others. With the exception of the last 5...I wouldn't hesitate to use any of them based on our test.
Hope you guys enjoy....and thanks again for all the help! My son was amazed at how you guys stepped up to help out some kid you don't even know
Funniest thing of the project...I didn't say anything when he went to shoot a bullshop. It walloped him, and he was like "what the heck!" From then on he knew what to expect from the big bullets
(now for some healthy discussion...)
The Deep Curl's puzzled me big time. The 240's did AWESOME... the 250 & 180....wow. Interstingly...both the bad ones were exactly the same bullet design. On the 240, the copper jacket fully wrapped the hollow point...on the 250 & 180, it only partially folded over into the hp. You can see the difference. I was shocked actually.
Really, imo....most of the bullets had satisfactory performance, obviously some better than others. With the exception of the last 5...I wouldn't hesitate to use any of them based on our test.
Hope you guys enjoy....and thanks again for all the help! My son was amazed at how you guys stepped up to help out some kid you don't even know
Funniest thing of the project...I didn't say anything when he went to shoot a bullshop. It walloped him, and he was like "what the heck!" From then on he knew what to expect from the big bullets
(now for some healthy discussion...)
Last edited by WV Hunter; 03-25-2012 at 08:55 AM.
03-25-2012, 10:51 AM
#14
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
A lot of information there. Excellent job. And the Lehigh I believe did what they were designed to do. The loss in weight is the petals coming off. And the rest is intended to plow through which would account for the excellent penetration.
Like you, I love big lead. And the results did not surprise me. Its just hard to get past the fact that a lead conical bullet will put a world of hurt on something. You did a great job there doing the testing young man. The ones that just went to pieces, kind of surprised me at that distance and with that powder charge. An excellent job.
The only thing I might have done different is used a chronograph right before the box. At 20 yards the chance of shooting a chronograph are slim although it could have happened. And a shield would have protected the machine from sabots. The reason I say this is.. some of the bullets are made to perform best at certain speeds. 80 grains of Pyrodex might not have "brought out the best" in some of the bullets or shown the worst in others. But believe me, I am not knocking the work put into this.
Just a real good effort there. A great report!!
Like you, I love big lead. And the results did not surprise me. Its just hard to get past the fact that a lead conical bullet will put a world of hurt on something. You did a great job there doing the testing young man. The ones that just went to pieces, kind of surprised me at that distance and with that powder charge. An excellent job.
The only thing I might have done different is used a chronograph right before the box. At 20 yards the chance of shooting a chronograph are slim although it could have happened. And a shield would have protected the machine from sabots. The reason I say this is.. some of the bullets are made to perform best at certain speeds. 80 grains of Pyrodex might not have "brought out the best" in some of the bullets or shown the worst in others. But believe me, I am not knocking the work put into this.
Just a real good effort there. A great report!!
03-25-2012, 11:04 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
Cayugad....yeah, I was trying to get a chrono for the test. My dad has one, but I couldn't get up with him in time, as he lives a few hours away. I wanted to see the speeds as well.
I think you are right, that the Lehighs did what they were designed to do...but personally, I don't like that. I'd rather have them expand and plow through, than poke a small hole through. They did penetrate very well, as they should have.
My favorites were the two big lead 460's, and the 240 deep curl. Amazing how those peformed...and they shed almost no weight. That 240 DC dang near turned inside out. I was blown away at how it did, vs the other two deep curls that blew up.
I think you are right, that the Lehighs did what they were designed to do...but personally, I don't like that. I'd rather have them expand and plow through, than poke a small hole through. They did penetrate very well, as they should have.
My favorites were the two big lead 460's, and the 240 deep curl. Amazing how those peformed...and they shed almost no weight. That 240 DC dang near turned inside out. I was blown away at how it did, vs the other two deep curls that blew up.
03-25-2012, 11:30 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
When you posted your jug blown to pieces the other day from the deep curl, I immediately thought you might have had a similar issue as we did. But, obviously after you shot again with clean holes...it had to have hit rocks.
03-25-2012, 11:51 AM
#18
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
The Lehigh/Bloodlines appear to have worked exactly as designed. We are so stuck on the conventional mushrooming bullet design it is really had to understand a bullet operationg on a different theory.
The design and operation of the Lehigh/Bloodline is from Europe - Germany, I believe. Over there they hunt with rifles much smaller in caliber than we do and they need to have a very lethal bullet. The design features incorporated in the Lehigh/Bloodline offers that aspect.
The petals are designed to come off in a liquid medium, then the petals rotate out and up creating tremendous damage to the internal organs. In your case the petals came off but did not probabably travel very far in your wet sand environment, which would be completely different in a liquid medium.
Once the petals come off the boddy of the bullet continues penetrating with the ragged edges of the bullet tearing and cutting its way through tissue, at the same time the small cup in the nose of the bullet creates a large 'hydrostactic' shock within the animal.
Theoretically this damage and shock will also overide the animals ability to start the flight response that is the natural response when an animal gets hurt.
This picture shows how the petals operate in Ballist Jell. You can see how the petals move away from the primary wound channel to create more damage and shock to the animal.
It really is a difficult operation for us Americans to buy into, but it does work.
Here is Dave's explanation of the Bullet but it is a long read...
The design and operation of the Lehigh/Bloodline is from Europe - Germany, I believe. Over there they hunt with rifles much smaller in caliber than we do and they need to have a very lethal bullet. The design features incorporated in the Lehigh/Bloodline offers that aspect.
The petals are designed to come off in a liquid medium, then the petals rotate out and up creating tremendous damage to the internal organs. In your case the petals came off but did not probabably travel very far in your wet sand environment, which would be completely different in a liquid medium.
Once the petals come off the boddy of the bullet continues penetrating with the ragged edges of the bullet tearing and cutting its way through tissue, at the same time the small cup in the nose of the bullet creates a large 'hydrostactic' shock within the animal.
Theoretically this damage and shock will also overide the animals ability to start the flight response that is the natural response when an animal gets hurt.
This picture shows how the petals operate in Ballist Jell. You can see how the petals move away from the primary wound channel to create more damage and shock to the animal.
It really is a difficult operation for us Americans to buy into, but it does work.
Here is Dave's explanation of the Bullet but it is a long read...
Thankyou for the inquiry on why Lehigh Bullets uses brass instead of copper. I thought I would expand this to also include how the Lehigh bullets function. The design aspects of a good hunting bullet include: accuracy, initial penetration, expansion/energy transfer, organ destruction, and final penetration/perforation.
Accuracy
Accuracy is important for terminal performance as the bullet has to get to the intended location. Lehigh bullets are machined from barstock on cnc lathes. The bullets come off the machine complete with no secondary operations. The bullets are machined at around 8,000 rpm. Due to the bullet being formed while spinning, the concentricity of all the features is inherent in the process. The hollowpoint is centered on the outside diameter and the wall thickness is equal all around the bullet. This means the center of the geometry is equal to the axis of rotation which makes for an accurate bullet. A formed bullet, either a jacketed or formed solid copper bullet is made in a static process, it is not spinning. Manufacturing and tooling tolerances make it very difficult to keep the internal features like the hollowpoint at the true center axis. Most o these bullets are also produced on a press that may form 10-15 at a time. Each of those bullets have the potential for being slightly out of balance due to the different tooling each one sees. I am not stating you can not make an accurate bullet through the forming method; I am just stating it is easier to produce an accurate bullet by machining. The downside of machining bullets is the cycle time. Machining yields somewhere around 120 bullets per hour while forming can yield over 5,000 per hour.
Initial Penetration
The bullet must be stong enough to penetrate the animals hide and muscle boundary before expansion begins. Factors for consideration include the bullet weight, impact velocity, and the animals structure. Due to these variables, bullets have to be designed based on estimated averages which induces performance issues when game is taken at the extremes of where the bullet designers thought the bullet would be used. This effects all manufactures. Machining a bullet from brass enables us to very quickly change the design features like the hollowpoint and then test the result. Since the parameters are controlled by cnc code, it is very simple and fast to change from one design to another enabling the testing of many configurations in a single day to quickly arrive at an optimum design. This process takes much longer on formed bullets as changes are tooling dependent. New dies and punches must be produced for each trial and the equipment must be then setup and centered making it a long process to try to get to the optimum performance level. The investement in tooling is very large and that is why you may find a formed bullet manufacture producing a poorly performing bullet for sometime before changing the design. The tooling and machine may also limit the formed bullet manufacture on how strong they can make the nose for complete initial penetration. The forming machine may not have the power to form a jacket with sufficient wall thickness resulting with a bullet that begins expansion upon contact severly limiting the bullets terminal performance. Machining a brass bullet to any wall thickness is very simple.
Exapnsion/Energy Transfer
This phase of terminal performance is very similar in a Lehigh brass bullet and a copper or jacketed bullet. The process begins as the bullet contacts the animal and completes when the bullet is fully expanded. The nose or metplat, determines the initial energy transfer. Big, flat noses transfer an extreme amount of energy. Depending on the impact point, this energy may be sufficient to shut down the animals nervous system. While a large flat nose is the best design for intital energy transfer, it lowers the ballistic coefficient of the bullet resulting in velocity loss and making it more susceptable to wind conditions.
Upon penetrating the hide and muscle layer, the bullet encounters tissue with a greater liquid content. This hydraulic pressure in the hollopoint cavity causes the nose to expand transfering additional energy to the animal. Expansion is complete when the upset growth stops which on a jacketed bullet could be a partial expansion or when the nose is completely folded back around the shank. Assuming a .500" diameter jacketed bullet, expansion may reach a frontal daimeter of 1.00". Lehigh bullets start expansion much in the same way. The bullets are designed to begin expansion upon the resulting hydraulic pressure. The nose petals are then designed to split the web of material between them. Once the petals achieve an angle of slightly less than 45 degrees, the petals separate from the base and radiate outward on independent trajectory paths. Remember all components of the bullet are still spinning.
Organ Destruction
In this phase there are some very distinct differences between a conventional formed/mushrooming bullet and a Lehigh brass bullet. As the Lehigh bullet's petals radiate outward, additional energy is transferred by each of the six petals. The petals have sharp cutting edges, and coupled with the spinning action, they are devastating to all tissue encountered leading to massive organ damage. The radial pattern will normally extend over 10". A customer recently tested the bullets on a bison and using a metal detector found petals 18" from the base path. Organ destruction was enormous. Often there is sufficient enrgy in the petals to penetrate the offside hide. A convetional mushrooming bullet can only effect tissue near its path through the animal. A 10" wide path of destruction has a greater terminal effect that a 1" path. Please note we are not advocating using the controlled fracturing feature for a hunter to take marginal shots, we are just exteding the killing performance of a well-placed shot.
Final Penetration/Perforartion
The increased frontal diameter of a mushroomed bullet severly impares additional penetration. The increase surface area slows the bullet down quickly and imperfect mushrooming where one side expands further than the other results in the bullet veering off the inteded course. A large radiused nose also tends to follow the path of least resistance which pulls the bullet off course. If you look at most African game solids, the nose has a large flat which punches through bone and keeps the bullet tracking straight. Once the controlled fractuing of the petals on the Lehigh bullet is complete, the bullet shank continues penetrating with a frontal diameter equal to the bullet diameter. The new nose of the bullet is flat, the best shape for straight line penetration and the cicumference edge around the face is sharp allowing the bullet to cut cleanly and to punch through bone without course variation. The Lehigh bullet shank is designed to retain sufficient energy to completely penetrate the offside hide providing an exit bloodtrail.
In summary, the controlled fracturing of the Lehigh bullet is very different from what we have been conditioned to believe is the optimal performace. The terminal performance of the Lehigh's is devastating and much different than a mushrooming bullet. We are not going to get everyone to drink the Lehigh Koolaide, but I hope over time that people will see through experience that the Lehigh terminal performance is superior. As a bullet designer I have the responsibility to game of creating the most effective bullet possible - this is a responsibility I take very seriously.
Thanks for your inquiry and I hope my explanation was clear.
Dave Fricke
Accuracy
Accuracy is important for terminal performance as the bullet has to get to the intended location. Lehigh bullets are machined from barstock on cnc lathes. The bullets come off the machine complete with no secondary operations. The bullets are machined at around 8,000 rpm. Due to the bullet being formed while spinning, the concentricity of all the features is inherent in the process. The hollowpoint is centered on the outside diameter and the wall thickness is equal all around the bullet. This means the center of the geometry is equal to the axis of rotation which makes for an accurate bullet. A formed bullet, either a jacketed or formed solid copper bullet is made in a static process, it is not spinning. Manufacturing and tooling tolerances make it very difficult to keep the internal features like the hollowpoint at the true center axis. Most o these bullets are also produced on a press that may form 10-15 at a time. Each of those bullets have the potential for being slightly out of balance due to the different tooling each one sees. I am not stating you can not make an accurate bullet through the forming method; I am just stating it is easier to produce an accurate bullet by machining. The downside of machining bullets is the cycle time. Machining yields somewhere around 120 bullets per hour while forming can yield over 5,000 per hour.
Initial Penetration
The bullet must be stong enough to penetrate the animals hide and muscle boundary before expansion begins. Factors for consideration include the bullet weight, impact velocity, and the animals structure. Due to these variables, bullets have to be designed based on estimated averages which induces performance issues when game is taken at the extremes of where the bullet designers thought the bullet would be used. This effects all manufactures. Machining a bullet from brass enables us to very quickly change the design features like the hollowpoint and then test the result. Since the parameters are controlled by cnc code, it is very simple and fast to change from one design to another enabling the testing of many configurations in a single day to quickly arrive at an optimum design. This process takes much longer on formed bullets as changes are tooling dependent. New dies and punches must be produced for each trial and the equipment must be then setup and centered making it a long process to try to get to the optimum performance level. The investement in tooling is very large and that is why you may find a formed bullet manufacture producing a poorly performing bullet for sometime before changing the design. The tooling and machine may also limit the formed bullet manufacture on how strong they can make the nose for complete initial penetration. The forming machine may not have the power to form a jacket with sufficient wall thickness resulting with a bullet that begins expansion upon contact severly limiting the bullets terminal performance. Machining a brass bullet to any wall thickness is very simple.
Exapnsion/Energy Transfer
This phase of terminal performance is very similar in a Lehigh brass bullet and a copper or jacketed bullet. The process begins as the bullet contacts the animal and completes when the bullet is fully expanded. The nose or metplat, determines the initial energy transfer. Big, flat noses transfer an extreme amount of energy. Depending on the impact point, this energy may be sufficient to shut down the animals nervous system. While a large flat nose is the best design for intital energy transfer, it lowers the ballistic coefficient of the bullet resulting in velocity loss and making it more susceptable to wind conditions.
Upon penetrating the hide and muscle layer, the bullet encounters tissue with a greater liquid content. This hydraulic pressure in the hollopoint cavity causes the nose to expand transfering additional energy to the animal. Expansion is complete when the upset growth stops which on a jacketed bullet could be a partial expansion or when the nose is completely folded back around the shank. Assuming a .500" diameter jacketed bullet, expansion may reach a frontal daimeter of 1.00". Lehigh bullets start expansion much in the same way. The bullets are designed to begin expansion upon the resulting hydraulic pressure. The nose petals are then designed to split the web of material between them. Once the petals achieve an angle of slightly less than 45 degrees, the petals separate from the base and radiate outward on independent trajectory paths. Remember all components of the bullet are still spinning.
Organ Destruction
In this phase there are some very distinct differences between a conventional formed/mushrooming bullet and a Lehigh brass bullet. As the Lehigh bullet's petals radiate outward, additional energy is transferred by each of the six petals. The petals have sharp cutting edges, and coupled with the spinning action, they are devastating to all tissue encountered leading to massive organ damage. The radial pattern will normally extend over 10". A customer recently tested the bullets on a bison and using a metal detector found petals 18" from the base path. Organ destruction was enormous. Often there is sufficient enrgy in the petals to penetrate the offside hide. A convetional mushrooming bullet can only effect tissue near its path through the animal. A 10" wide path of destruction has a greater terminal effect that a 1" path. Please note we are not advocating using the controlled fracturing feature for a hunter to take marginal shots, we are just exteding the killing performance of a well-placed shot.
Final Penetration/Perforartion
The increased frontal diameter of a mushroomed bullet severly impares additional penetration. The increase surface area slows the bullet down quickly and imperfect mushrooming where one side expands further than the other results in the bullet veering off the inteded course. A large radiused nose also tends to follow the path of least resistance which pulls the bullet off course. If you look at most African game solids, the nose has a large flat which punches through bone and keeps the bullet tracking straight. Once the controlled fractuing of the petals on the Lehigh bullet is complete, the bullet shank continues penetrating with a frontal diameter equal to the bullet diameter. The new nose of the bullet is flat, the best shape for straight line penetration and the cicumference edge around the face is sharp allowing the bullet to cut cleanly and to punch through bone without course variation. The Lehigh bullet shank is designed to retain sufficient energy to completely penetrate the offside hide providing an exit bloodtrail.
In summary, the controlled fracturing of the Lehigh bullet is very different from what we have been conditioned to believe is the optimal performace. The terminal performance of the Lehigh's is devastating and much different than a mushrooming bullet. We are not going to get everyone to drink the Lehigh Koolaide, but I hope over time that people will see through experience that the Lehigh terminal performance is superior. As a bullet designer I have the responsibility to game of creating the most effective bullet possible - this is a responsibility I take very seriously.
Thanks for your inquiry and I hope my explanation was clear.
Dave Fricke
03-25-2012, 12:30 PM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
Thanks Sabotloader. That makes alot of sense....and their testing is obviously better than an 8th graders
I understand better now how they are designed, honestly I never knew that. Explains why so many folks like & use them.
I understand better now how they are designed, honestly I never knew that. Explains why so many folks like & use them.
03-25-2012, 03:36 PM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 766
A very interesting report and I can appreciate all of the work that went into it.
But I'm more impressed by the result of the Sierra 300 grain FP's that weighed 283 grains
after being fired as shown in post #9.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/3924093-post9.html
As the Bloodline article explains,
That result could be beneficial for penetrating a very large thick skinned animal like a big bear or buffalo.
But I'm more impressed by the result of the Sierra 300 grain FP's that weighed 283 grains
after being fired as shown in post #9.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/3924093-post9.html
As the Bloodline article explains,
Big, flat noses transfer an extreme amount of energy.
Last edited by arcticap; 03-25-2012 at 03:45 PM.