Converted Knight Disc and Blackhorn 209
11-30-2011, 01:48 PM
#1
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
Converted Knight Disc and Blackhorn 209
As some might have read, my attempt the other week to shoot BlackHorn 209 out of my Original Disc which has the Lehigh conversion, had some real problems. Today I was determined to give it another shot..
To remind those that are not following the thread. Last time at the range, I tried the Lehigh conversion in the Disc rifle and some BlackHorn powder. I was using Winchester W209 primers. And got a surprise or two when the rifle failed to ignite on a couple occasions.
Forum members advised it was the Winchester Primers and that I needed to get CCI primers or Remington STS primers. So I got them. I was also told I needed to clean out the carbon with drill bits. So I purchased a brand new set of craftsman bits to do just that. So I was set to give this rifle another try.
On the last outing, I used 100 grains of BlackHorn 209 primers. The accuracy was acceptable, but I felt it could have done better. So I decided to try some different loads this time and see what the rifle liked best.
I started first off by preparing the rifle according to what forum members told me to do. I did the following...
#1 I swabbed the bore with out any kind of cleaner. Only dry patches. This was to pull any excess oil from the bore.
#2 I fired off 2 primers and then swabbed the bore again with a dry patch.
#3 Use a very tight fitting sabot. So instead of the MMP HPH-24 I went to the MMP HPH-12 and it was a TIGHT FIT.
#4 Do not swab between shots. I will discuss this point later.
I was now ready to load and fire.
So I started with 90 grains of BlackHorn 209 and a 300 grain Hornady XTP. The HPH-12 in this rifle was a tight fit. In fact I wondered if I could load this with the rifle ramrod. The answer is yes I could. But I had to use the short starter that acts as a ramrod palm saver to do so. But they loaded fine. The three shots were I felt pretty good.
I then upped the charge to 100 grains and fired two rounds. Why they moved to the left I can not say. Perhaps the added velocity? I felt the hold and address of the rifle was as good for those two as it was for the other three.
I then kicked the powder charge up to 110 grains of Blackhorn as I noticed this was a common load for a lot of Blackhorn shooters. The firs thing I did not when loading shot # 1.. As I moved the sabot down the barrel, it reached two points in the bore where the loading basically felt like someone had put on the brakes BIG TIME and was not going to let me finish the loading. In fact shot #2 .. this feeling was so severe I was worried I was not going to get the sabot onto the powder charge. When I finally did, I was relieved. Yet is shot right next to the hard loading #1 shot. Have other shooters experienced this hit the brakes kind of feeling when shooting blackhorn?
The loading bothered me so bad, I took solvent and swabbed the bore. Then I dried the bore with three dry patches and shot 3-5. Why #4 did what it did, I have no idea.
Now I wanted to see if the Pyrodex pellets would shoot as good as they did last time. So I cleaned the barrel with solvent. And basically took it back to ready to shoot on a clean barrel condition.
Still shooting the HPH-12 sabots and Hornady Bullets I loaded two Pyrodex 50 grain pellets and shot 6-8 . The tightness of the group was more then acceptable. I was swabbing between shots with Simple Green cleaner mixed moderately strong. And then dry patching. 3&5 are from the Blackhorn shooting and can not count in the Pyrodex pellet group.
Then for my own curiosity, I went in the house and got some HPH_24 sabots. I wanted to see if they would shoot as well as last time with the Pyrodex Pellets. The only difference this time was I was still using the CCI primers. Could this have made that much of a difference in groups?
Weather conditions were as follows...
Cold!! 27 degrees, over cast, and an occassional snow flake falling to earth. Very gray out and a wind from the North. Not real nice out, but I shoot anyway. The swab was Simple Green cleaner.
I want to say that with the CCI primers, the BlackHorn 209 went off like a center fire rifle. Even sounded like one. No Poofs.. no misfires. Just flawless. I am not sure why this powder is not shooting as well as pellets.
Perhaps..
..I have not hit on the rifle amount of powder
..It does not like Hornady 300 grain XTPs
..Could have been me
I mean the accuracy was not terrible. But at 50 yards with a scope I expect an very tight group. That 110 grain group was all over the place.
To remind those that are not following the thread. Last time at the range, I tried the Lehigh conversion in the Disc rifle and some BlackHorn powder. I was using Winchester W209 primers. And got a surprise or two when the rifle failed to ignite on a couple occasions.
Forum members advised it was the Winchester Primers and that I needed to get CCI primers or Remington STS primers. So I got them. I was also told I needed to clean out the carbon with drill bits. So I purchased a brand new set of craftsman bits to do just that. So I was set to give this rifle another try.
On the last outing, I used 100 grains of BlackHorn 209 primers. The accuracy was acceptable, but I felt it could have done better. So I decided to try some different loads this time and see what the rifle liked best.
I started first off by preparing the rifle according to what forum members told me to do. I did the following...
#1 I swabbed the bore with out any kind of cleaner. Only dry patches. This was to pull any excess oil from the bore.
#2 I fired off 2 primers and then swabbed the bore again with a dry patch.
#3 Use a very tight fitting sabot. So instead of the MMP HPH-24 I went to the MMP HPH-12 and it was a TIGHT FIT.
#4 Do not swab between shots. I will discuss this point later.
I was now ready to load and fire.
So I started with 90 grains of BlackHorn 209 and a 300 grain Hornady XTP. The HPH-12 in this rifle was a tight fit. In fact I wondered if I could load this with the rifle ramrod. The answer is yes I could. But I had to use the short starter that acts as a ramrod palm saver to do so. But they loaded fine. The three shots were I felt pretty good.
I then upped the charge to 100 grains and fired two rounds. Why they moved to the left I can not say. Perhaps the added velocity? I felt the hold and address of the rifle was as good for those two as it was for the other three.
I then kicked the powder charge up to 110 grains of Blackhorn as I noticed this was a common load for a lot of Blackhorn shooters. The firs thing I did not when loading shot # 1.. As I moved the sabot down the barrel, it reached two points in the bore where the loading basically felt like someone had put on the brakes BIG TIME and was not going to let me finish the loading. In fact shot #2 .. this feeling was so severe I was worried I was not going to get the sabot onto the powder charge. When I finally did, I was relieved. Yet is shot right next to the hard loading #1 shot. Have other shooters experienced this hit the brakes kind of feeling when shooting blackhorn?
The loading bothered me so bad, I took solvent and swabbed the bore. Then I dried the bore with three dry patches and shot 3-5. Why #4 did what it did, I have no idea.
Now I wanted to see if the Pyrodex pellets would shoot as good as they did last time. So I cleaned the barrel with solvent. And basically took it back to ready to shoot on a clean barrel condition.
Still shooting the HPH-12 sabots and Hornady Bullets I loaded two Pyrodex 50 grain pellets and shot 6-8 . The tightness of the group was more then acceptable. I was swabbing between shots with Simple Green cleaner mixed moderately strong. And then dry patching. 3&5 are from the Blackhorn shooting and can not count in the Pyrodex pellet group.
Then for my own curiosity, I went in the house and got some HPH_24 sabots. I wanted to see if they would shoot as well as last time with the Pyrodex Pellets. The only difference this time was I was still using the CCI primers. Could this have made that much of a difference in groups?
Weather conditions were as follows...
Cold!! 27 degrees, over cast, and an occassional snow flake falling to earth. Very gray out and a wind from the North. Not real nice out, but I shoot anyway. The swab was Simple Green cleaner.
I want to say that with the CCI primers, the BlackHorn 209 went off like a center fire rifle. Even sounded like one. No Poofs.. no misfires. Just flawless. I am not sure why this powder is not shooting as well as pellets.
Perhaps..
..I have not hit on the rifle amount of powder
..It does not like Hornady 300 grain XTPs
..Could have been me
I mean the accuracy was not terrible. But at 50 yards with a scope I expect an very tight group. That 110 grain group was all over the place.
11-30-2011, 05:31 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kerrville, Tx. USA
Posts: 2,722
If I couldn't find an accurate load with less than 120 gr of BH 209, I would not use it for several reasons: gets too expensive, and makes me flinch too much
I would keep the powder charge lower and try a different bullet/ sabot combination. My elk load is 90-95 gr of powder depending on which bullet I am using, so shouldn't be a problem on dropping down to 80 or so.
That said, I don't ever shoot sabots, so they may require more speed to get accuracy, but that doesn't jive with the fact that you were getting better accuracy with lower velocity (pyrodex). 90 gr of BH 209 should be slightly faster shooting than 100 gr of pyrodex
I would keep the powder charge lower and try a different bullet/ sabot combination. My elk load is 90-95 gr of powder depending on which bullet I am using, so shouldn't be a problem on dropping down to 80 or so.
That said, I don't ever shoot sabots, so they may require more speed to get accuracy, but that doesn't jive with the fact that you were getting better accuracy with lower velocity (pyrodex). 90 gr of BH 209 should be slightly faster shooting than 100 gr of pyrodex
11-30-2011, 06:47 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
Dave barrel whip may enter into it. If I were doing the testing I would try a load of BH that gave comparable velocity the 5 grains up and 5 grains down. I have found 5 grains often makes some difference with BH.
Not sure but at a guess 85 might be in the right area.
Not sure but at a guess 85 might be in the right area.
12-01-2011, 05:52 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Posts: 3,732
Today, i read through your post as carefully as i could. Please forgive me if i don't understand. What i read was you are no longer having ignition issues, but are having issues with rough spots in the bore. Perhaps some strokes using J-B would help.
What i saw was 2 pellet gave excellent accuracy. It is my understanding that 85g of BH209 would be about the equivalent of 2 pellet. It seems to me, 85g of the BH, might result in the same barrel whip etc. as the 2 pellets, and thus result in the same accuracy.
If it had been me enduring the frustration of using the BH, right or wrong, i would have jumped to the conclusion that the rifle could use a bedding job.
What i saw was 2 pellet gave excellent accuracy. It is my understanding that 85g of BH209 would be about the equivalent of 2 pellet. It seems to me, 85g of the BH, might result in the same barrel whip etc. as the 2 pellets, and thus result in the same accuracy.
If it had been me enduring the frustration of using the BH, right or wrong, i would have jumped to the conclusion that the rifle could use a bedding job.
12-01-2011, 07:17 AM
#9
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
There are no ruff spots in my bore. But I noted yesterday that after some shooting initially, the sabots loaded smooth. Then for some reason the rifle displayed two spots in the barrel, that as I loaded if felt like someone was putting on brakes. Whether the Blackhorn had accumulated there, I was not sure. But after I swabbed the bore with solvent all that went away.
Next time out I am going to start the testing at 80 grains of BH and move up 5 grains at a time. And for kick and I do mean kicks, will throw a couple 120 grain charges down it to see what happens. I was thinking some Scorpion 260 grain would be a good choice for bullets.
Next time out I am going to start the testing at 80 grains of BH and move up 5 grains at a time. And for kick and I do mean kicks, will throw a couple 120 grain charges down it to see what happens. I was thinking some Scorpion 260 grain would be a good choice for bullets.