New APP - Super Powder
03-20-2011, 07:18 AM
#91
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
flounder33
Good choice and you chose "just enough" of an edge over a PRB. I would go one step further with using a White 451 or MK in 45cal just because it is slightly easier to insure the barrel is clean and they are both fairly simple designs. Plus the big 451 slugs fly a bit flatter than the 50cals. I would probably choose Swiss powder too because it has some of the best performance and milder fouling.
The main point i was making is that there is nothing new about subs, they have been around since roughly 1890. Fast twist has probably been around just as long. Magnum caps might be considered "new fangled" if we exclude Musket caps. 209 primers are far from new fangled as well and work fine. In a FPJ they might even give an edge over the elements and are easier to handle for some people.
Buckskinners and traditionalists are quick to point out the limits they want to impose on ML hunting seasons but in reality most of them are just as guilty as someone shooting a Savage or most modern inlines in terms of ballistics. When you need or want meat on the table tunes change just enough to give you "the edge".
Good choice and you chose "just enough" of an edge over a PRB. I would go one step further with using a White 451 or MK in 45cal just because it is slightly easier to insure the barrel is clean and they are both fairly simple designs. Plus the big 451 slugs fly a bit flatter than the 50cals. I would probably choose Swiss powder too because it has some of the best performance and milder fouling.
The main point i was making is that there is nothing new about subs, they have been around since roughly 1890. Fast twist has probably been around just as long. Magnum caps might be considered "new fangled" if we exclude Musket caps. 209 primers are far from new fangled as well and work fine. In a FPJ they might even give an edge over the elements and are easier to handle for some people.
Buckskinners and traditionalists are quick to point out the limits they want to impose on ML hunting seasons but in reality most of them are just as guilty as someone shooting a Savage or most modern inlines in terms of ballistics. When you need or want meat on the table tunes change just enough to give you "the edge".
03-20-2011, 07:41 AM
#93
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
I appologize for mis-typing... it certainly is not one of my better skills....
03-20-2011, 07:50 AM
#94
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Yucca Valley,Ca
Posts: 2,496
I will not argue about PRB's. But there is no saboted bullet on the market that will compete with a 400 or 500 grain conical out of a 50 caliber rifle. And at distances way past 200 yards. That is what I was referring to when I was talkng about BPCR shooting. However my front stuffer shoots a 525 grain bullet that I cast. And I can guarantee you that bullet is substantially more effective on deer at 200 yards over any saboted bullet choice you can find, or is available. You just have to know how to shoot them. And when you shoot at distances past 150 yards you can not use bullet drop as a major difference. Because both heavy conicals and saboted bullets need to know the proper range for good shot placement. Yes the saboted bullet may be a bit flatter to 200 yards, but it is not as effective as that heavy conical. And BP will shove that heavy conical with no problem at all.
That is the only point I was trying to make. I don't think there is any magic powder. I think it is all in the shooter. And I also really do not think there is alot of difference between a heavy conical in a front stuffer, and a heavy conical in a 45-70 BPCR. If you know your rifle, your load, and you have the ability. I have seen too many people shoot long range with both rigs. And in both rigs they are shooting big heavy conicals. Not saboted bullets. Just an opinion.
Join the LRML forum. If you already haven't. And listen to those guys talk about long range shooting. You will not believe what some of those guys can do. And they are doing it with BP. Not some new fangled powders. An they are shooting heavy conicals. And few are shooting in lines. Tom.
That is the only point I was trying to make. I don't think there is any magic powder. I think it is all in the shooter. And I also really do not think there is alot of difference between a heavy conical in a front stuffer, and a heavy conical in a 45-70 BPCR. If you know your rifle, your load, and you have the ability. I have seen too many people shoot long range with both rigs. And in both rigs they are shooting big heavy conicals. Not saboted bullets. Just an opinion.
Join the LRML forum. If you already haven't. And listen to those guys talk about long range shooting. You will not believe what some of those guys can do. And they are doing it with BP. Not some new fangled powders. An they are shooting heavy conicals. And few are shooting in lines. Tom.
03-20-2011, 07:59 AM
#95
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
The largest and most import (in my mind) advantage of the heavy conical in long range shooting is the external forces (things that we have no contral over and that can change in flight) have substantually less effect on the flight path of the projectile...
03-20-2011, 08:11 AM
#96
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,175
GM54-120
Sorry it is coming from:
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/...%2BJDyOLrQE%3D
It shows it in a stick container, but the decription is correct for loose powder, because you certainly are not going to put sticks in BP cartridges..
I will verify in the morning...
JIM SHOCKEY'S™ GOLD™
SUPER POWDER™ - 1 LB. CONTAINER
•Developed for use w/in-line muzzleloading rifles & black powder cartridge firearms •Clean & superior performance w/flawless dependability •Velocity exceeds 1900 FPS w/most Thompson Center, CVA, Barnes, Nosler, or Hornady .50 caliber/sabot configurations using a 250 grain bullet & 100 grains of APP or Jim Shockey’s™ Gold™ Super Powder™ •NOTE: Jim Shockey’s™ Gold™ Super Powder™ offers a slight increase in velocity than standard APP Super Powder™ (0815066).
Sorry it is coming from:
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/...%2BJDyOLrQE%3D
It shows it in a stick container, but the decription is correct for loose powder, because you certainly are not going to put sticks in BP cartridges..
I will verify in the morning...
JIM SHOCKEY'S™ GOLD™
SUPER POWDER™ - 1 LB. CONTAINER
•Developed for use w/in-line muzzleloading rifles & black powder cartridge firearms •Clean & superior performance w/flawless dependability •Velocity exceeds 1900 FPS w/most Thompson Center, CVA, Barnes, Nosler, or Hornady .50 caliber/sabot configurations using a 250 grain bullet & 100 grains of APP or Jim Shockey’s™ Gold™ Super Powder™ •NOTE: Jim Shockey’s™ Gold™ Super Powder™ offers a slight increase in velocity than standard APP Super Powder™ (0815066).
03-20-2011, 08:12 AM
#97
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
I use a ML during both deer seasons and i use mostly 54cal carbines. IMO that is enough of a "handicap" in terms of range limitations. I also only take 3 loads and some extra primers with me to the stand.
I dont know if they are getting smarter but i am getting older and after opening weekend you are lucky to get a reasonable shot. I hunt to relax and i really like venison but not quite enough to use one of my centerfires and shoot them at 300+ yards. I haven't used them since 2003 for hunting deer.
The "new powder" really isn't about any real hunting advantage to me, its more about cost and convenience during practice IF it lives upto its claims....plus my own curiosity.
This year im looking into more cost effective options to enjoy my hobby including more conical and sabotless shooting. I have no interest in PRBs or guns that can shoot them well.
I dont know if they are getting smarter but i am getting older and after opening weekend you are lucky to get a reasonable shot. I hunt to relax and i really like venison but not quite enough to use one of my centerfires and shoot them at 300+ yards. I haven't used them since 2003 for hunting deer.
The "new powder" really isn't about any real hunting advantage to me, its more about cost and convenience during practice IF it lives upto its claims....plus my own curiosity.
This year im looking into more cost effective options to enjoy my hobby including more conical and sabotless shooting. I have no interest in PRBs or guns that can shoot them well.
03-20-2011, 08:14 AM
#98
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,605
liquidorange
That is why my LGS has a pound coming for even less and it will be here this week.
But thank you for your concern and the heads up. I have my bases covered and i hope the others have as well.
They already violated the terms by charging before it ships and ive documented everything and its ready to present to my bank if they try to charge a restocking fee if i cancel. The bank that issued my card is a block away from me so it would only be a mild inconvenience at worst. They have reversed charges for me before in under 2 weeks with only a phone call.
Assuming things get ugly, 15% is a small price to pay for the satisfaction i will get by getting one of my federal clients involved. They specialize in online fraud and enforcing numerous laws pertaining to online activity.
That is why my LGS has a pound coming for even less and it will be here this week.
But thank you for your concern and the heads up. I have my bases covered and i hope the others have as well.
They already violated the terms by charging before it ships and ive documented everything and its ready to present to my bank if they try to charge a restocking fee if i cancel. The bank that issued my card is a block away from me so it would only be a mild inconvenience at worst. They have reversed charges for me before in under 2 weeks with only a phone call.
Assuming things get ugly, 15% is a small price to pay for the satisfaction i will get by getting one of my federal clients involved. They specialize in online fraud and enforcing numerous laws pertaining to online activity.
Last edited by Gm54-120; 03-20-2011 at 08:46 AM.
03-20-2011, 08:29 AM
#100
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 9,557
I will not argue about PRB's. But there is no saboted bullet on the market that will compete with a 400 or 500 grain conical out of a 50 caliber rifle. And at distances way past 200 yards. That is what I was referring to when I was talkng about BPCR shooting. However my front stuffer shoots a 525 grain bullet that I cast. And I can guarantee you that bullet is substantially more effective on deer at 200 yards over any saboted bullet choice you can find, or is available. You just have to know how to shoot them. And when you shoot at distances past 150 yards you can not use bullet drop as a major difference. Because both heavy conicals and saboted bullets need to know the proper range for good shot placement. Yes the saboted bullet may be a bit flatter to 200 yards, but it is not as effective as that heavy conical. And BP will shove that heavy conical with no problem at all.
That is the only point I was trying to make. I don't think there is any magic powder. I think it is all in the shooter. And I also really do not think there is alot of difference between a heavy conical in a front stuffer, and a heavy conical in a 45-70 BPCR. If you know your rifle, your load, and you have the ability. I have seen too many people shoot long range with both rigs. And in both rigs they are shooting big heavy conicals. Not saboted bullets. Just an opinion.
Join the LRML forum. If you already haven't. And listen to those guys talk about long range shooting. You will not believe what some of those guys can do. And they are doing it with BP. Not some new fangled powders. An they are shooting heavy conicals. And few are shooting in lines. Tom.
That is the only point I was trying to make. I don't think there is any magic powder. I think it is all in the shooter. And I also really do not think there is alot of difference between a heavy conical in a front stuffer, and a heavy conical in a 45-70 BPCR. If you know your rifle, your load, and you have the ability. I have seen too many people shoot long range with both rigs. And in both rigs they are shooting big heavy conicals. Not saboted bullets. Just an opinion.
Join the LRML forum. If you already haven't. And listen to those guys talk about long range shooting. You will not believe what some of those guys can do. And they are doing it with BP. Not some new fangled powders. An they are shooting heavy conicals. And few are shooting in lines. Tom.
Now you're bringing up 500gr conicals. I have no interest in shooting a 500gr bullet with the kind of charge it takes to make it effective.
Why would I when I can shoot a 300gr conical (Thor) with less powder that shoots flatter, and has way less recoil. I also want to use a bullet with good kill performance. I'll take the Barnes over your blob of lead. I prefer to not have lead in an animal i'm going to eat.
Listen, I love tradition. I've hunted with my Hawken with a PRB. It's a lot of fun, but I have to get much closer. That's not always possible in Colorado. I also go to club shoots and shoot the primitive competition. I also shoot CAS. Two 1860 Colts, Winchester 66 44-40, and DB Coach Shotgun 12ga. Everything with real BP. I burn two cases a year of BP.
I understand where you're coming from, but i'll stand by what I said.
BP and a PRB is limited. A modern inline, powder, and bullets extend those limitations.
Black powder is the most inefficient powder ever made. Pouring more down the barrel has it's limits. You can only develop so much power, and the rest blows out the barrel unburned.