SuperKirby

I don't know if it's because I grew up shooting longer range hunting rifles or why, but to me a bullet coming out of a rifle should have a point. I know that's not necessarily the case, but every time I think about trying a new bullet, I look at shape first and for a point. Next I look at reviews.
Now, what I don't get is when looking at reviews it seems like pointed bullets seem to have problems holding together. (SST's, FTX's, and PT Golds come to mind.)
Anybody know why that is?

Muley Hunter

If they don't hold together. It's not because they have a point.

Barnes hold together just fine.

Gm54-120

Correct

Ive got some tipped 458 SOCOMs and some cheaper 458 325gr FTXs. I cant imagine what it would take in a ML to make them fail. The 325gr FTX even holds up fine at 2300fps.

builder459

X 2 on what Muley said. in fact Barnes bullets hold together better than about any bullet, pointy or not. Ray

sabotloader

I think, like you, I had pretty much the same concept of bullets... Pointy bullets meant better BC so they will fly better over the longer ranges. Those were my exact thoughts. The some where along the line I figured out that round or flat nose bullets seemed to have beter terminal performance for at the ranges I was shooting and they seemed to be less effected by small branches or twigs... So even though I was shooting a 300 win mag I made the switch. Then I discoverd Noslers, becuse a .308/220 grain Hornady round nose came apart on two different elk shots... Noslers proved to be the best bullet I have ever shot + I could get it in Spire point and Semi-Round nose form. Noslers were the favorites of hunters in the US and Africa and they found that Noslers will completly expand over a greater range of velocities (high to low) than any other bullet. Eventually I gave up on the Spire point and went to the semi-round nose completly. They shot just fine to 300 yards. So that is the beginning of my mind accepting that I do not need pointy bullets for most of my hunting.

Like Muley said it is not really the shape of the bullet it is the construction + the velocity we shoot them at + the size of the caliber.... Because we are shooting 44,45, and 50 cal bullets at a really decent velocity the large surface area of that bullet especially after expanding creates a huge stress on the construction. They copper being so much lighter than the lead can not retain the energy that the lead does and can and often is stripped from the lead and left behind.

It is really not the pointy part of the bullet that cause this to happen... it is the velocity at the closer ranges that creates the problem... when you extend the range and the bullet slows down considerably the pointy bullet seems to work just fine.

My problem... my personal set max range is in the 200 yard mark with a muzzleloder. I have found in my case that non-pointy bullets work best from me through that entire yardage. I really do not need the pointy bullet to get the job done.

And the argument continues... because the lead conical guys will tell you they can shoot their big slow 400-500 grain freight trains with blunt noses over that same distance and see no ill effects but a harvested animal...

My problem... I am an old football/baseball coach "speed is always the best atribute"

my 2 bits...

Muley Hunter

sabot...........What you say applies to a lot of bullets. Except the Barnes. It's like a partition bullet. The from half expands easily, and the rear half stays solid for penetration.

It seems to expand at slow or fast fps the same. It also expands the same up close or at distance.

To me, it's a perfect bullet, and i've decided to use nothing else from now on. Since I can't use sabots in ML season. The Thor will be my bullet. A Barnes bullet in every way except name.

sabotloader

Yep! totally agree Barnes is a one piece bulet as well as the Lehigh that I use.

The Nosler is a copper-lead bulet but is built with a compartment across the shank of the bullet. Both the Barnes and the Nosler are able to control expansion in this manner. The soft lead in the nose allows the Nosler to expand at slower and faster velocities than does the Barnes. This is a recovered Nosler....



I have only shot a few Barnes bullets as they did fail on occasion for me, again from my 300 Win Mag. They would pencil right through a whitetail at close ranges, but that was probably my fault for using a Win Mag on whitetail... Others in the ML world have reported the same thing on occasion with Barnes also. (you can do a search and probably find these incidents) I have no idea which Barnes it was there are so many. Anyway, I do not use Barnes.

If I were hunting elk in Colorado - I am sure the thor would be the bullet I would go to... UNLESS Dave would start building his sabotless Lehigh's - i have some prototypes - they are awesome...

This is the Lehigh 50 sabotless



This is the 45 sabotless along side the regular 45..



They shoot pretty good also... not to mention how devastating they are on game...



That is exactly the same thought process and what I did when I went to the Nosler. It took a monumental effort on my part to move from the Nosler to the Brass Lehigh, but after reading about the possiblities of the bullet, it was developed in Germany, I did decide to give it a try... amazing little devil of a bullet it is.

lemoyne

Mike, A couple of questions. will the sabot-less go down a tight TC barrel and do the work the same way the ones did that I took my deer with the last couple years.

sabotloader

At this time... The 50 cal sabotless fits the big bores .504 and the 45's are just a little to large for the tight bore 45's.

If Dave ever gets any time this spring or early summer i am hoping he can get back to them. The 45 will be easier to make as the bore spread in 45 market is much less than the spread in the 50 cal market. I think he has all the measurments and improvement ideas that he needs - he just needs time.... Knight has got him quite busy.

Yes, the nose design is the same...

He tried to make some out of all copper but using coppen on a CNC lathe lead to other problems so the copper thought was abandonned, which is fine by me as Thor has that one covered.

mike

nchawkeye

I switched to SSTs several years back because they were pointy or had a higher BC...I went through several tests with them and PowerBelts and the 300gr Barnes...The SSTs shot flatter in the powder charges that my gun prefers which is usually 80-90grs of FFF Goex...

I never had a problem with the SSTs coming apart, but, my load was 85grs of Goex FFF...After killing several deer with them I went back and compared the 300gr Hornady .430 XTP and found that at 150 yards, using 80grs of FFF Goex there was only about an inch or so difference in drop...The BC on those .430 Hornady XTP 300gr bullets is pretty good as well...

I went to the .430s in 300gr and killed 4 deer with them this year with no problems...My theory is a hollow point like the Hornadys will open up faster...The problem we had with the SSTs was lack of blood trails on lung shots and small exit wounds...I started shooting deer high in the shoulder and they would drop on the spot...But, behind the shoulder was where I didn't seem to get enough damage...With the XTPs, I shot 2 in the lungs and 2 high in the shoulder and they all fell or went less than 20 yards...

The Barnes MZs are great bullets, just expensive if you shoot a lot...