ronlaughlin

In the past month i have read some strange idea, compared to my own, regarding the strength of different brand of primer. This led me to think; naturally this led to trouble.





That there is the way that was dreamed up to test primer strength. The clock is set about 2' from the muzzle of the rifle. The rifle is rested on the pad at the same point every time. The light is shown on the ceiling for to create a 'sky' for the Pro Chrono to 'see' the sabot fly under. The speed of the sabot was measured by the chronometer many times for 6 different primer. The rifle was fired at the garage door so the sabot shot out the barrel flew over the Pro-Chrono.

The Accura was loaded for each test with short black harvester sabot, and shot with different primer. Two different breech plug were tried; one being home made, and the other a CVA factory plug. Results were erratic. It may have been a waste of time and money. Here below is an average of averages of the results.




Most of the sabot ended up on the floor behind me, however they were scattered all over the garage.

It was surprising how dirty the breech plugs became without any powder being used. The flash channel had to be drilled out several times, because the speeds became very erratic. It seems the primer has more to do with the hard carbon build in the flash channel, than the powder.

The two breech plug produced similar results, except with the 777 primer. When the CVA plug was used with the 777 primer, the sabot had zero velocity i.e. the sabot did not make it out of the barrel. This didn't seem possible, so i tried it several times to no avail. The 777 primer drove the sabot down and out the barrel when the the home made breech plug was installed, but not with the CVA breech plug.

flounder33

I was thinking of doing one where you could see how far the different primers would send a bullet. Based on what you did there do you think a snug fitting bullet/sabot would make it out of the barrel with one of the stronger primers? Some people are convinced that the 209 primers will push the bullet off the charge before the powder ignites, thus affecting accuracy.

sabotloader

ronlaughlin

Hope you do not mind me re-posting the information over here from MM in my repsonse. I think it is very positive when two people conduct about the same type testing and come up with information that is close to the same..

A couple of years back Toby conducted some testing also. I am not sure how his results correlate with yours, but here is his information.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical3.html

Basically he came up with these velocities.

Shotgun Primers

Winchester 209ML ........................221 f.p.s.
Winchester 209 Triple Seven ML......244 f.p.s.
Remington 209 Kleanbore ML .........318 f.p.s.
Std. Winchester No. 209A ..............336 f.p.s.
Remington STS.............................338 f.p.s.
Std. Remington No. 209 ................341 f.p.s.
Cheddite No. 209 .........................347 f.p.s.
CCI 209M.....................................379 f.p.s.
Federal No. 209A ..........................381 f.p.s.

Rifle/Pistol Primers

Winchester WSP "Small Pistol" ….......116 f.p.s.
Winchester WSR "Small Rifle" ..........143 f.p.s

But, as you have already verified - these pressures can be a function of the breech plug. Which also interests me...

I think the difference between the CCI-209m and the Fed-209a is minimal - however the US military contracts the 209a as being the hotter primer for them.... but how do you tell when they are that close...

MountainDevil54

When i tried shooting some 385gr buffalo conicals, the cci 209m was blowing the bullet off the powder charge by a good 9" mark! The bullets fit waaaaay to loose and never set the powder off.

sabotloader

flounder33

I can tell you this and I hate to admit it... but the other day shooting the 52 - I dry holed a .458/300 grain Lehigh in a MMP .458/52 cal sabot. I new it as soon as I pushed the bullet down... but instaed of taking the the BP out _ I loaded up a W209 went back to the bench and pulled the trigger - all was forgiven... the sabot and bullet passed through the chrono - it registered on the chorno, but i forgot what it was and I certainly did not write it down in the shooting log... we found the sabot - but not the bullet and we looked but it was lost in the tall grass.

Semisane

Good stuff guys!!!

Has anyone shot regular hunting loads over a chron using different primers with the same bullet/sabot/powder combination?

sabotloader

Semisane

I have on one occasion that i remember... I was shooting BH-209 using a Lehigh Conversion. I kept the powder and the bullet constant but switch seven different primers if I remember right.

There was some movement in POI but not enough to be significant and the FPS stayed very close also.... Again not enough to raise a concern.

I could probably find the target and velocity information stored in photobucket someplace.

I ran this as more of an experiment for Tom than anything else.

ronlaughlin

Your guess is as good or better than mine. If it would work, i think the results would be less erratic than what i experienced today. What about putting them practice plastic bullet into a sabot?

Here is a copy of what Speer write about their plastic priactice bullet.



Product Information

Do you want to get a little handgun practice at times you can't get to the range? Don't have a heavy-duty backstop in the garage? SPEER Plastic Training Components are the prescription you need for short-range practice. This isn't loaded ammo. We make the bullets and cases--you supply the power. A standard large pistol primer provides all the power needed to propel the reusable bullets at velocities between 300 and 400 ft/sec. Cases are reusable, too. You don't even need reloading equipment to assemble Speer practice ammo. The case/bullet system is available for 38/357 and 44 caliber revolvers. For the 45 Auto, use our bullet and a standard 45 Auto brass case with a drilled-out flash hole. A backstop for these bullets can be quickly built from a cardboard box and carpet scraps. Bullets and cases are sold separately so you can replace lost or damaged bullets. SAFETY FIRST: Never use propellant when loading Plastic Training components. Treat the resulting ammunition with the same respect given conventional ammunition; velocity is high enough to injure the skin. Use only in well-ventilated areas. Brush the bore every 12-18 shots to prevent accumulation of primer residue.

goatbrother

Those plastic speer bullets will put one heck of a dent an a metal coffee can at 2 paces. They will also knock a rat on it's ass too.

ADVWannabee

I did this last weekend and the Winchester 777 primers didn't even budget the bullet. I had to pull the breach plug and push the bullet through. I had been using regular shotgun primers but read that they may move the bullet before the powder fully ignited so I switched to the less powerful primers. Sounds like people's experience in this thread doesn't really bare that out.