A lazy day with a M97 White .451
08-27-2010, 01:37 PM
#1
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
A lazy day with a M97 White .451
Today I decided to sit in the sun and take it easy. So I took out my White inline Model 97. I put the target up at 50 yards and decided to test some things.
Rifle: .451 caliber White Model 97. Has a 22 inch stainless steel barrel.
Scope: Bushnell Elite 2-7x32mm
Ignition: percussion cap. RWS 1075 caps used.
Powder: Goex, Pyrodex P, Triple Seven 2f
Projectile: No Excuses 460 grain pure lead .451 conical bullet
Swabbing: Rusty Duck Black Off. I only swabbed when I changed powders. So there was a total of three swabs. Most the time ten shots were fired before I swabbed. Although I did on occasion clean the nipple to help load the RWS caps further down the nose.
Weather Conditions: 82 degrees and a slight wind. But sunny.
Everyone is on a powder kick. They want the the best powder, the cleanest powder, the most powerful powder, and the biggest powder charge. The other night I was reading from Doc White's web site and it seems some of his recommend hunting loads in a .451 caliber is 60 grains of powder. 60 grains to many would be a joke right? But in reality, 60 grains shooting a 460 grain projectile would be more then enough to take a white tail deer. I am not sure what the speed or energy of that load would be, but I think to 100 yards it would have no problem if you hit what you aim at. Perhaps some White shooters have personal experience with low powder charges, deer hunting and distances, they like to add to this.
Normally I shoot 80 grains of Triple Seven 2f powder. But today I started out with 60 grains of Pyrodex P. The rifle of course loaded easy with the No Excuses conical. But I could not move the conical off the charge. So that was a good thing. I then fired a five shot group. No swabbing was done at all.
It shot a little lower then I thought. Perhaps it was the heat, or the fact I was shooting as fast as I wanted with no concern for barrel heat. But like I said... the normal load it 80 grains of T-7 2f. So it might be just the fact that the velocity was reduced. Needless to say, I was pleased with the accuracy and the recoil was next to nothing. What a sweet load to shoot.
I then kicked the Pyrodex charge up to 65 grains of powder.
The group remained pretty much the same as far as distance from the bull. Shot #8 climbed higher and shots 9&10 also moved up. Over all, this is a good group for not swabbing and paying no attention to barrel heating up.
This is where I swabbed the barrel clean. I mean actually to the point that there was little fouling coming out of the barrel with Rusty Duck patches. I then went to the Triple Seven 2f and moved the measure back down to 60 grains.
On a clean barrel and again with no swabbing I did a five shot group with 60 grains. It was very tight! And I mean real good I thought. I then moved up to 65 grains of Triple Seven. One of those five went into the lower group which was the 60 grain group. But the other four formed that group in the bull. I was more then pleased. Could 65 grains of Triple Seven 2f be my super white tail deer load? For the ranges I shoot it would sure work. Also I noted when I was swabbing the barrel clean for the next powder test, there was no crud ring. I mean none. Could this be because the charges were so low, or the fact I was shooting conical bullets? Could the #11 caps be the cause of it? Maybe the nice weather? I really do not know. The bore swabbed out real easy.
Next powder up was Goex 3f. Here I moved the charge to 70 grains. I did this because that is the powder charge this rifle used to like. I wanted to see if it would shoot good again with that powder.
The first shot was the lowest. But the next four were right in there. A thing that puzzles me. When I sight the rifle in in late fall before our deer season, it shoots dead on at 50 yards. So a question to you... does shooting in the heat move a group down that much? Have you ever notice a difference like that with your rifles?
Over all it was a good day. 25 rounds was half the new box of conical bullets. I decided that was enough for the day. But it does give me food for thought. 65 grains of T-7 might be my new deer load. I just wonder how well that big conical would expand with that kind of powder charge.
And clean up was a snap. This rife was treated with Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner and it swabbed out in about three or four patches. Cleaning the parts took longer then the barrel. And Sabotloader, I used your pink tape on the breech plug today. 25 shots and it backed out as easy as it went in. thanks...
Rifle: .451 caliber White Model 97. Has a 22 inch stainless steel barrel.
Scope: Bushnell Elite 2-7x32mm
Ignition: percussion cap. RWS 1075 caps used.
Powder: Goex, Pyrodex P, Triple Seven 2f
Projectile: No Excuses 460 grain pure lead .451 conical bullet
Swabbing: Rusty Duck Black Off. I only swabbed when I changed powders. So there was a total of three swabs. Most the time ten shots were fired before I swabbed. Although I did on occasion clean the nipple to help load the RWS caps further down the nose.
Weather Conditions: 82 degrees and a slight wind. But sunny.
Everyone is on a powder kick. They want the the best powder, the cleanest powder, the most powerful powder, and the biggest powder charge. The other night I was reading from Doc White's web site and it seems some of his recommend hunting loads in a .451 caliber is 60 grains of powder. 60 grains to many would be a joke right? But in reality, 60 grains shooting a 460 grain projectile would be more then enough to take a white tail deer. I am not sure what the speed or energy of that load would be, but I think to 100 yards it would have no problem if you hit what you aim at. Perhaps some White shooters have personal experience with low powder charges, deer hunting and distances, they like to add to this.
Normally I shoot 80 grains of Triple Seven 2f powder. But today I started out with 60 grains of Pyrodex P. The rifle of course loaded easy with the No Excuses conical. But I could not move the conical off the charge. So that was a good thing. I then fired a five shot group. No swabbing was done at all.
It shot a little lower then I thought. Perhaps it was the heat, or the fact I was shooting as fast as I wanted with no concern for barrel heat. But like I said... the normal load it 80 grains of T-7 2f. So it might be just the fact that the velocity was reduced. Needless to say, I was pleased with the accuracy and the recoil was next to nothing. What a sweet load to shoot.
I then kicked the Pyrodex charge up to 65 grains of powder.
The group remained pretty much the same as far as distance from the bull. Shot #8 climbed higher and shots 9&10 also moved up. Over all, this is a good group for not swabbing and paying no attention to barrel heating up.
This is where I swabbed the barrel clean. I mean actually to the point that there was little fouling coming out of the barrel with Rusty Duck patches. I then went to the Triple Seven 2f and moved the measure back down to 60 grains.
On a clean barrel and again with no swabbing I did a five shot group with 60 grains. It was very tight! And I mean real good I thought. I then moved up to 65 grains of Triple Seven. One of those five went into the lower group which was the 60 grain group. But the other four formed that group in the bull. I was more then pleased. Could 65 grains of Triple Seven 2f be my super white tail deer load? For the ranges I shoot it would sure work. Also I noted when I was swabbing the barrel clean for the next powder test, there was no crud ring. I mean none. Could this be because the charges were so low, or the fact I was shooting conical bullets? Could the #11 caps be the cause of it? Maybe the nice weather? I really do not know. The bore swabbed out real easy.
Next powder up was Goex 3f. Here I moved the charge to 70 grains. I did this because that is the powder charge this rifle used to like. I wanted to see if it would shoot good again with that powder.
The first shot was the lowest. But the next four were right in there. A thing that puzzles me. When I sight the rifle in in late fall before our deer season, it shoots dead on at 50 yards. So a question to you... does shooting in the heat move a group down that much? Have you ever notice a difference like that with your rifles?
Over all it was a good day. 25 rounds was half the new box of conical bullets. I decided that was enough for the day. But it does give me food for thought. 65 grains of T-7 might be my new deer load. I just wonder how well that big conical would expand with that kind of powder charge.
And clean up was a snap. This rife was treated with Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner and it swabbed out in about three or four patches. Cleaning the parts took longer then the barrel. And Sabotloader, I used your pink tape on the breech plug today. 25 shots and it backed out as easy as it went in. thanks...
08-27-2010, 02:15 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,918
That was a great, great report Cayugad. I really enjoyed the read.
As for your various musings regarding point of impact, crud ring, weather, etc., I'm pretty sure I know the answer to all of those questions - and the answer is "possibly".
I'm convinced a heavy lead conical over 60 - 65 grains of powder is all you ever need for deer, regardless of shot angle. Those big slow bullets just keep on ploughing through. I suspect they expand just as well (and possibly better) at lower velocities. The only thing gained with more powder is flatter trajectory and more recoil.
As for your various musings regarding point of impact, crud ring, weather, etc., I'm pretty sure I know the answer to all of those questions - and the answer is "possibly".
I'm convinced a heavy lead conical over 60 - 65 grains of powder is all you ever need for deer, regardless of shot angle. Those big slow bullets just keep on ploughing through. I suspect they expand just as well (and possibly better) at lower velocities. The only thing gained with more powder is flatter trajectory and more recoil.
08-27-2010, 02:32 PM
#3
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
I kind of feel the same way. And really 60 grains was a pleasure to shoot. When I get a heavy jacket on, you'd never know you pulled the trigger. Also that Bushnell Scope is sure a sweet thing.
08-27-2010, 03:11 PM
#4
Typical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Montana
Posts: 581
Well this is starting to make me think about my inline. It was dead on this spring when the temps were in the 50s. Now when I shoot it I'm high and to the right mostly with the temps in 70s. Maybe the heat has been the issue. Now I wish that I didn't touch the scope and waited for cooler days. Owell a lesson learned. I get back my TC Renegade next week and I'll post pics. Going shooting in the morning. Suppose to be in the 50s so maybe I can get in back on the right track.
Last edited by 50calty; 08-27-2010 at 03:13 PM.
08-27-2010, 03:22 PM
#5
Dominant Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
We have nice cool nights (43º the other morning) but it still warms up during the day. At least you can sleep good, and you know fall is coming soon. That is one reason I did not adjust my scope. I will shoot it again in October and see what it does. Although with the heavy barrel this rifle has, it does not warm up too fast.
08-27-2010, 07:02 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
cayugad
In AR the heat and humidity change by around 50% we have had over 100 with around 90% humidity every day since the middle of June I believe. I have come to allowing a 2 inch difference at 100 yds from the middle of summer to hunting season. They are opening the inside the city limits bow season here on the Sept. 6 and I am hoping it won't be so hot I will not hunt I always worry about loosing the meat if its hot. No limits on the in town bow hunt.
In AR the heat and humidity change by around 50% we have had over 100 with around 90% humidity every day since the middle of June I believe. I have come to allowing a 2 inch difference at 100 yds from the middle of summer to hunting season. They are opening the inside the city limits bow season here on the Sept. 6 and I am hoping it won't be so hot I will not hunt I always worry about loosing the meat if its hot. No limits on the in town bow hunt.
08-30-2010, 11:39 AM
#8
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location:
Posts: 492
Dave - Great shooting and report. Thanks for your "hard work" on our behalf. 
As to your question about personal experiences, I have shot two deer with my M97 .504, both with 80 gr 777 2f and a 460 gr Bullshop solid conical.
One was shot at a slightly upward angle (came over a ridge toward me) - distance was about 20 yds - it passed through the shoulder, the spine, and out the other side with minimal damage on the off side.
The other was at about 45 yds with the bullet entering just behind the shoulder, passing through the gut and opposite hip and exiting. Almost no expansion on the exit wound.
The only thing that those two experiences taught me was that I didn't need to increase my load in order to harvest whietails. I don't know if decreasing it would help with expansion or not. I had about a 100 yd tracking job with the second deer - not a lot of blood. I was actually wondering if the bullets were too hard.
This combination was also very accurate on the range at 100 yds.
As to your question about personal experiences, I have shot two deer with my M97 .504, both with 80 gr 777 2f and a 460 gr Bullshop solid conical.
One was shot at a slightly upward angle (came over a ridge toward me) - distance was about 20 yds - it passed through the shoulder, the spine, and out the other side with minimal damage on the off side.
The other was at about 45 yds with the bullet entering just behind the shoulder, passing through the gut and opposite hip and exiting. Almost no expansion on the exit wound.
The only thing that those two experiences taught me was that I didn't need to increase my load in order to harvest whietails. I don't know if decreasing it would help with expansion or not. I had about a 100 yd tracking job with the second deer - not a lot of blood. I was actually wondering if the bullets were too hard.
This combination was also very accurate on the range at 100 yds.
Last edited by jaybe; 08-30-2010 at 11:42 AM.
