Guess what I ordered?
03-14-2010, 06:04 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MN
Posts: 1,068
Guess what I ordered?
Happy birthday to me!!! Last night I ordered a Savage 10ml II. I'm way excited. Las year I didn't get to shoot much due to having to small kids and most days that I had to time to go out and shoot there was no way I would have enough time to clean everything the same day. The fact that I will now be able to shoot one day and clean the next if I have to should triple my shooting time at least.
Anyway, for those that have one of these, where do I start? I already have a couple different types of Barnes bullets, so I figure I can start with them, but what type of powder am I best to start with? Is just a set of powder dippers sufficient? What else do I need to know?
Vince
Anyway, for those that have one of these, where do I start? I already have a couple different types of Barnes bullets, so I figure I can start with them, but what type of powder am I best to start with? Is just a set of powder dippers sufficient? What else do I need to know?
Vince
03-14-2010, 08:13 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hayes, Va.
Posts: 2,332
Hey Vince,
I am always happy when a guy gets a new gun. But not to burst your bubble, please read this warning about this gun:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html
This is not the first occurence of the gun. There were more. Please be safe when loading this gun.
I am always happy when a guy gets a new gun. But not to burst your bubble, please read this warning about this gun:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html
This is not the first occurence of the gun. There were more. Please be safe when loading this gun.
03-14-2010, 08:32 AM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: My Range in Central NY
Posts: 320
Hey Vince,
I am always happy when a guy gets a new gun. But not to burst your bubble, please read this warning about this gun:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html
This is not the first occurence of the gun. There were more. Please be safe when loading this gun.
I am always happy when a guy gets a new gun. But not to burst your bubble, please read this warning about this gun:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert2.html
This is not the first occurence of the gun. There were more. Please be safe when loading this gun.
Unlike some that always find gloom and doom, I have 2 brothers and a father that own and shoot ML10IIs a lot ( over 800 shots in the last year, How do I know? I cast their projectiles, the 333 gr LBT hard cast to be exact! We buy Harvester sabots by the case from Grafs and Son. I have a custom built smokeless, that I built on a Remington #5 rolling block. This rifle Killed 3 deer last year and has consumed over 7 lbs. of 4759 and over a pound of Reloaded 7.
If you want the real story behind rafsob quality link. take a look at this Link! Please take note of Post 4 in this link,
http://nchuntandfish.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30429
And then take a look at this link and consider joining this site for the latest on what the ML10II can do,
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards....oard=smokeless
IMHO, Dippers will be fine if you follow directions!!! Any of the Book listed powders, is what you start with!!! The owners manual even tells you what dipper to use!! I have made dippers and also use the Lee Dippers. My Father and both brothers use Lee Dippers. The original Builder/designer of the smokeless concept rifle uses dippers to load it. That would be Henry Ball. His son Bill is carrying the ball now. Pun Intended!
I generally use a powder measure, I normally have one of my three measures full of 4759 and set to drop one of my favorite loads for my rifle, I will fill 30 to 40 Vials at a time and go shooting.
You will love the ML10II, IMHO it is one of the safest if not the safest Muzzleloaders out there!!!!
Cleaning, why clean it the next Day? You can shoot the WHOLE year if you want, then clean it, if something tickles your fancy to do so. Every 100 primers, take a look at the ventliner and replace if needed. Drill the flame channel out to clean it if you want, many find letting it build up helps accuracy by being consistently the same. I clean the barrel on my gun at the end of hunting season weather it needs it or not. Then I shoot it for a year and go hunting again. All three of the ML10IIs in the family are blued in Black stocks.You do not have to load it to the gills to have fun shooting it, I hunt with a 333 gr LFN Hard cast Boolit from a LBT mold in a Harvester sabot on to of 33 gr. of IMR SR4759 . This load gives me the equivalent Velocity of 1.5 gr Volume, of BH209, and that Is 1775 FPS 12 ft from the muzzle. My Dad uses my load, My 2 brothers use 38 Gr. of 4759 for everything. This cronos 2000 +/- FPS and shoots very flat. Bryan Killed a deer at 236 yrd. with this load last year,
We quite often plink with a cast boolit from a mold I cut, it is the same profile as the 250 Gr XTP but is 265 gr. I often plink with as little as 23 gr. , that is 1275 fps. This Load would kill any deer on this planet. 28.5 gr of 4759 will equal 85 grV of BH209.
Stupid is what STUPID does!!!!
Last edited by Screwbolts; 03-14-2010 at 09:24 AM.
03-14-2010, 09:07 AM
#4
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: My Range in Central NY
Posts: 320
For those of you that may choose not to read post 4 of the above linked thread, I copied and pasted it here, 
ok e:
This is 1shot1Kill's answer to a different poster that linked to the same link as rafsob did.
Pasted here for your reading enjoyment.
Quoted from 1shotiKill:
"RB, I am not sure just what point you are trying to make here, but I can tell with 110% certainty, that there is absolutely nothing, notta, zip, zilche, "official" about Toby Bridge's statements on this matter. But since you seem to like to bring this matter up on a regular basis, I think it is about time to put this matter to rest once and for all.
In 1998, Toby Bridges was hired by my father and I, for $42K a year, to find a major arms manufactures to market our smokeless powder muzzleloader and in February 1999 we sign a contract with Savage Arms for Patent production rights for the model 10ML. Later that very same yeart Savage Arms hired Toby Bridges as a consultant and R&D consultant for $30K a year. By Toby Bridges own admission (please keep in mind, his word, written or spoken is suspect at best) he was making more money off the Savage 10ML, than he ever had in his life. Keep this in mind as your read further.
Toby blew that first Savage 10ML-II up in March 2004. I have the faxes and e-mails that he sent the very same day as that 10ML-II was blown up. His written words that very same day, do not reflect the story he has on his website today. There were many things going on between Savage, myself, my father, and Toby. These things were a direct result of Toby doing things that were detrimental to Savage arms, the Savage 10ML-II, as well as to himself and those around him. All this started in 2003, when Toby had made some extremely poor decisions in his personal life, but I don't need to get into the details of that. Early in 2004, Toby was palced on notice, both from Savage and my father, that if he didn't get his crap straighten out and straighten out fast, there would be dire consequences.
Toby was repeatedly warned and told to cease and desist the use and advocation of non-Savage recommended loading data, to include duplex and triplex loads and powders. Toby was also told to cease and desist from insulting and harrasing various game departmants across the US, concerning the Savage 10ML-II. Savage even demanded that he send written appologies to them, for his misconduct. Instead of heading the warning from us and Savage, Toby turned his anger towards us and Savage. He became belligerent and insubordinate towards us and Savage.
It all came to a head, early in August 2004, when Toby was employment from Savage and us, was terminated. For 3 weeks, Toby sent faxes and e-mails daily in an attempt to exort a six figure sum from Savage and $25K from us, or he would make sure that his "blown up" Savage 10ML-II would be plastered all over the internet. We and Savage refused to give into his demands, and for one time that I am aware of, Toby actually was true to his word and plastered it all over the internet on 24 August 2004. He even came back to us about 1 year later and tried the same extortion attempt again, but was told to go pleasure himself.
Toby sent that blown 10ML-II back to Savage in May 2004. Savage did a thorough examination of that 10ML-II and had external experts exam it as well. In September or October 2004, that 10ML-II and 6 brand new 10ML-II's were sent to H.P White Labertories, the world reknowned small arms testing lab, for examination and to duplicate the blow up. H.P. White's determination was only an over charge combined with a bore obstruction could have caused the catrastropic failure, such as Toby claimed to have. Toby was present at the Savage Arms with us, when Savage was conducting destruction test on Savage 10ML-II's. Toby was and is fully aware of it takes to destruct a Savage 10ML-II. I can tell you that it takes in excess of 129,000 PSI to destruct a Savage 10ML-II.
Bottom line is Toby Bridges blew that 10ML-II up intentional. He did it because he knew very well that his days were numbered with Savage and us. He blew it up to use as extortion material to use at a later date.
When H.P. White returned that 10ML-II and the other to Savage, I requested that Savage send the 10ML-Ii that Toby blew up to me. I now it is the same 10ML-II, because the serial number says so and I knew what serial number 10ML-II Toby had. It was sent to me after Savage replaced the barrel, barrel nut, recoil lug, breech plug and stock. This is what that very same 10ML-II looks like today.
Now as for regarding the second blown Savage 10ML-II, the owner of that Savage 10Ml-II has not even contacted Savage Arms about it. So as of this date Savage Arms has no knowledge of the details of the incident, much less an opportunity to examine the muzzleloader. However, there are numerous reports coming out of Canada, supposedly by people who know this invidual and of the incident, that he used a black powder volunmmetric powder charger, to measure and dump his powder chargers. There is another report, supposedly from one of this guys hunting buddies, that the muzzleloader had a charge from the previous season in it and he loaded it again.
I and everyone else should take these reports, as to the cause, with a grain of salt, as they could be just hearsay or pure speculation. The only sure way to know for sure, is for that individual to send that muzzleloader back to Savage Arms for examintion and external examination and testing.
Bottom line is there has never been a firearm made, rifle shotgun, handgun, that cannot be blown up, has been blown up, nor will be blown up. The Savage 10ML-II, with the books loads only generate pressures in the 34,000 - 42,000 PSI range. It is impossible, let me say that again, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, to blow a Savage 10ML-II up with those low pressures loads. So, if Toby says he was only shooting 45gr of 5744 and 250gr bullet, he is lying (actually I know he is lying because his fax that same day states he was shooting something diferrent) and if this guys in Canada says he was only shooting 42.5gr of 4759 and 250gr bullet, he is lying, because it is impossible to blow a Savage with those loads, simply impossible."
end of quote from 1shot1Kill, who happens to be Bill Ball.
I wish spelling was easy for me!
Ken
ok e:This is 1shot1Kill's answer to a different poster that linked to the same link as rafsob did.
Pasted here for your reading enjoyment.
Quoted from 1shotiKill:
"RB, I am not sure just what point you are trying to make here, but I can tell with 110% certainty, that there is absolutely nothing, notta, zip, zilche, "official" about Toby Bridge's statements on this matter. But since you seem to like to bring this matter up on a regular basis, I think it is about time to put this matter to rest once and for all.
In 1998, Toby Bridges was hired by my father and I, for $42K a year, to find a major arms manufactures to market our smokeless powder muzzleloader and in February 1999 we sign a contract with Savage Arms for Patent production rights for the model 10ML. Later that very same yeart Savage Arms hired Toby Bridges as a consultant and R&D consultant for $30K a year. By Toby Bridges own admission (please keep in mind, his word, written or spoken is suspect at best) he was making more money off the Savage 10ML, than he ever had in his life. Keep this in mind as your read further.
Toby blew that first Savage 10ML-II up in March 2004. I have the faxes and e-mails that he sent the very same day as that 10ML-II was blown up. His written words that very same day, do not reflect the story he has on his website today. There were many things going on between Savage, myself, my father, and Toby. These things were a direct result of Toby doing things that were detrimental to Savage arms, the Savage 10ML-II, as well as to himself and those around him. All this started in 2003, when Toby had made some extremely poor decisions in his personal life, but I don't need to get into the details of that. Early in 2004, Toby was palced on notice, both from Savage and my father, that if he didn't get his crap straighten out and straighten out fast, there would be dire consequences.
Toby was repeatedly warned and told to cease and desist the use and advocation of non-Savage recommended loading data, to include duplex and triplex loads and powders. Toby was also told to cease and desist from insulting and harrasing various game departmants across the US, concerning the Savage 10ML-II. Savage even demanded that he send written appologies to them, for his misconduct. Instead of heading the warning from us and Savage, Toby turned his anger towards us and Savage. He became belligerent and insubordinate towards us and Savage.
It all came to a head, early in August 2004, when Toby was employment from Savage and us, was terminated. For 3 weeks, Toby sent faxes and e-mails daily in an attempt to exort a six figure sum from Savage and $25K from us, or he would make sure that his "blown up" Savage 10ML-II would be plastered all over the internet. We and Savage refused to give into his demands, and for one time that I am aware of, Toby actually was true to his word and plastered it all over the internet on 24 August 2004. He even came back to us about 1 year later and tried the same extortion attempt again, but was told to go pleasure himself.
Toby sent that blown 10ML-II back to Savage in May 2004. Savage did a thorough examination of that 10ML-II and had external experts exam it as well. In September or October 2004, that 10ML-II and 6 brand new 10ML-II's were sent to H.P White Labertories, the world reknowned small arms testing lab, for examination and to duplicate the blow up. H.P. White's determination was only an over charge combined with a bore obstruction could have caused the catrastropic failure, such as Toby claimed to have. Toby was present at the Savage Arms with us, when Savage was conducting destruction test on Savage 10ML-II's. Toby was and is fully aware of it takes to destruct a Savage 10ML-II. I can tell you that it takes in excess of 129,000 PSI to destruct a Savage 10ML-II.
Bottom line is Toby Bridges blew that 10ML-II up intentional. He did it because he knew very well that his days were numbered with Savage and us. He blew it up to use as extortion material to use at a later date.
When H.P. White returned that 10ML-II and the other to Savage, I requested that Savage send the 10ML-Ii that Toby blew up to me. I now it is the same 10ML-II, because the serial number says so and I knew what serial number 10ML-II Toby had. It was sent to me after Savage replaced the barrel, barrel nut, recoil lug, breech plug and stock. This is what that very same 10ML-II looks like today.
Now as for regarding the second blown Savage 10ML-II, the owner of that Savage 10Ml-II has not even contacted Savage Arms about it. So as of this date Savage Arms has no knowledge of the details of the incident, much less an opportunity to examine the muzzleloader. However, there are numerous reports coming out of Canada, supposedly by people who know this invidual and of the incident, that he used a black powder volunmmetric powder charger, to measure and dump his powder chargers. There is another report, supposedly from one of this guys hunting buddies, that the muzzleloader had a charge from the previous season in it and he loaded it again.
I and everyone else should take these reports, as to the cause, with a grain of salt, as they could be just hearsay or pure speculation. The only sure way to know for sure, is for that individual to send that muzzleloader back to Savage Arms for examintion and external examination and testing.
Bottom line is there has never been a firearm made, rifle shotgun, handgun, that cannot be blown up, has been blown up, nor will be blown up. The Savage 10ML-II, with the books loads only generate pressures in the 34,000 - 42,000 PSI range. It is impossible, let me say that again, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, to blow a Savage 10ML-II up with those low pressures loads. So, if Toby says he was only shooting 45gr of 5744 and 250gr bullet, he is lying (actually I know he is lying because his fax that same day states he was shooting something diferrent) and if this guys in Canada says he was only shooting 42.5gr of 4759 and 250gr bullet, he is lying, because it is impossible to blow a Savage with those loads, simply impossible."
end of quote from 1shot1Kill, who happens to be Bill Ball.
I wish spelling was easy for me!
Ken
03-14-2010, 09:18 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: West NE
Posts: 1,455
With smokeless, dippers are fine, though I would certainly use a scale if I were to approach within 1gr of max. I don't have a smokeless ML, but have loaded centerfire for a few years. You can be sloppy with BP, not with smokeless. Greater risk, greater rewards. Play it safe, and weigh if you're loading hot.
03-14-2010, 10:44 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hayes, Va.
Posts: 2,332
Not really trying to throw water on this happy fire, but when I have seen stories and the damamge to that poor fellow's hand I get really concerned. As "Big Z" stated, when using smokeless powder and you can get to the max pressure measurement within a grain of powder, that makes it not idiot proof. Not calling anyone an idiot, but there are just to many variables when dealing with a smokeless powder in a ML!
Leave the ML guns to black powder and subs. The pressure spreads are as not as critical with BP! A gra or two are not that critical. I honestly believe that if I am trying to make a gun do something they nomally don't do, like shooting out to distances that are far too great and unachiecveable with a Regular ML, then I am in an area that is inheritly unsafe. I have personally seen to many accidents after my 55 plus years handling firearms.
Sorry this is just my two cents. Proceed at your own risk!
Leave the ML guns to black powder and subs. The pressure spreads are as not as critical with BP! A gra or two are not that critical. I honestly believe that if I am trying to make a gun do something they nomally don't do, like shooting out to distances that are far too great and unachiecveable with a Regular ML, then I am in an area that is inheritly unsafe. I have personally seen to many accidents after my 55 plus years handling firearms.
Sorry this is just my two cents. Proceed at your own risk!
03-14-2010, 11:00 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MN
Posts: 1,068
I've been drooling over this gun for about 3 years. I've read a fair amount about it, and it's definately possible to blow yourself up with it. Same with a CVA. I'd still go out and buy a CVA if I felt so inclined. I'm not out to shoot 500 yards at this point. I just want to be able to shoot a ML much more than I do right now, and this will allow me to do it. I do appreciate the heads up, don't get me wrong.
