Will other powder companies follow suit??
01-23-2010, 01:50 PM
#31
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
No, the question is BH209 here to stay...
If I remember correctly, I first shot Pyrodex in 1975, it hadn't been out long...It was introduced to the market because of it's higher ignition temperature so it could be shipped and stored without a lot of government regulations...
I shoot mainly Goex black powder but do pick up Pyrodex when on sale...Cleaning is no problem, it's part of shooting black powder...Guess I've done this so long I don't mind cleaning...Heck if it was simple then why would I waste my time???
If I remember correctly, I first shot Pyrodex in 1975, it hadn't been out long...It was introduced to the market because of it's higher ignition temperature so it could be shipped and stored without a lot of government regulations...
I shoot mainly Goex black powder but do pick up Pyrodex when on sale...Cleaning is no problem, it's part of shooting black powder...Guess I've done this so long I don't mind cleaning...Heck if it was simple then why would I waste my time???
01-23-2010, 01:52 PM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 1,408
They won't say, but someone did some solvent tests that were a pretty strong indication that it is nitrocellulose-based. I no longer have access to a GCMS or lab equipment to test conclusively.
01-23-2010, 01:56 PM
#33
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
90gr JSG 2f @ 50 yards. This barrel had 12 shots on it yesterday, i loaded up 11 more shots and fired them today as fast as i could without a cool down. The shots in the black were my first 6 shots and then the next 5 shots were slightly lower (where i was aiming) This gun is still grouping after 23 shots total on a fouled barrel. I most likely could have done better but the wind is horrible and the cold that moved in had me frozen. The barrel heated up really good. Actually to the point where i was able to thaw out my hands and get them warm enough to where i was comfortable.
With a couple minute cool down between each shot, It would shoot a really tight group.
With a couple minute cool down between each shot, It would shoot a really tight group.
01-23-2010, 07:04 PM
#35
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
First we will look at the black powders.
Goex prior to late 2000 was more corrosive than the other brands on the market at that time. This was due to the grade of potassium nitrate they were using. Their long-time supplier folded in 2000 so they had to switch to potassium nitrate produced in Chile. Their long-time supplier had been shipping them a fertilizer grade of potassium nitrate while telling them it was a technical grade. They refused to listen to me when I told them that back in 1984. But at the same time they had no choice. There was no other U.S. producer of potassium nitrate they could buy from.
Then in 2001 they got their charcoal problem in hand. After they closed the Moosic plant their long-time charcoal supplier was pulling a fast one on them.
But as it stands now the major brands of BP, GOEX, Schuetzen and Swiss all use a grade of potassium nitrate where the chlorides are measured in parts per million.
On to the subs.
APP, Shockey's Gold, Pinnacle and Black Mag are based on ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate. Only Black Mag's patent shows the addition of potassium perchlorate. Which makes its residue more corrosive than the other 3. APP, Shockey's Gold and Pinnacle are all made by the same company. So there is really nothing that makes one really superior compared to the others.
Blackhorn 209 was handed to me. The mfg. claimed it was not a smokeless (nitrocellulose) powder. So I had at it in the kitchen with different solvents. Turned out TO BE a nitrocellulose powder with 17 parts of an unidentified chemical used to tone it down in the gun. The unknown chemical is highly soluble in water. I just saw no need to spend another day or two in the kitchen to identify it. And given the price per pound I figured it simply was out of the picture. After reading a post or two in this thread I might just take another look at the 17 parts of the unidentified water-soluble chemical and see if that would cause corrosion.
With Hodgdon we have Pyrodex and Triple Seven. The whole patented concept in Pyrodex was the use of sodium benzoate with potassium nitrate. But to get the two to react fast enough to make it a usefull firearm propellant they had to heave in something like 17 parts of potassium perchlorate. When the powder burns the potassium perchlorate simply gives up its oxygen and remains as potassium chloride. ANY chloride will be most corrosive in the gun. Does John Boy use Alantic Ocean water to clean his guns after a shoot?? I think not.
Onto 777.
The patent on Pyrodex ran out a few years back. Then the in-line ML hunting crowd wanted faster powders. A big push came when the plastic sabots came into use in the in-line ML rifles. That 17 parts of potassium perchlorate that was converted to potassium chloride causes a lot of grief with tight fitting sabots. The little crystals of potassium chloride are scattered to the bore. When you would push a sabot down the bore the crystals would embed in the plastic. So you would reach a point where you could not get the sabot down onto the powder charge.
So what we see in 777 is a change to sodium dintitrobenzoate sulonate. Think of it as going up a notch in benzoates. This dinitrobenzoate is HIGHLY reactive with charcoal. So there is no need to heave in a bunch of potassium perchlorate to "strengthen" the powder. This makes 777 a lot LESS corrosive compared to Pyrodex. When I checked the 777 on brass plates there was no surface pitting of the brass as with Pyrodex. Hodgdon's MSDS for 777 shows potassium perchlorate. From what I saw in my steel plate and brass sheet corrosion tests I don't think it has any perchlorate in it.
With this development of 777 Hodgdon can claim that it is an improved version of Pyrodex. Makes getting it onto the market a lot cheaper than going through it as if it is an entirely new explosive composition.
The thing about potassium chloride corrosion in gun bores is that a lot of times the average shooter would never know it is happening. You can get a lot of micro-pitting of the bore which gives the surface of the metal a frosted look. This comes up to bite the shooter if the shooter switches to black powder. BP fouling will then act as if it is welded to the bore walls. Simply because the metal's surface is so rough and pitted.
Just keep in mind that ALL of these powders are based on potassium nitrate as a source of oxygen for powder combustion. As a result they produce potassium carbonate as a product of combustion. This "potash" is in itself slightly corrosive in the bore. Anything in the bore that will dissolve in water to form an electrolyte solution will be corrosive. So this gives all of these powders what might be called a baseline corrosiveness. Any chlorides present will enhance/increase this base level of corrosiveness. Potash itself will only cause a uniform shallow rusting of the surface metal. As soon as you add chlorides you can get pit corrosion that bites deep into the surface of the metal. be it steel gun barrels or fired brass cases.
This is a quote from a fellow named Lou Gram who posted it on an other forum to answer some questions after he checked it out chemically.
Goex prior to late 2000 was more corrosive than the other brands on the market at that time. This was due to the grade of potassium nitrate they were using. Their long-time supplier folded in 2000 so they had to switch to potassium nitrate produced in Chile. Their long-time supplier had been shipping them a fertilizer grade of potassium nitrate while telling them it was a technical grade. They refused to listen to me when I told them that back in 1984. But at the same time they had no choice. There was no other U.S. producer of potassium nitrate they could buy from.
Then in 2001 they got their charcoal problem in hand. After they closed the Moosic plant their long-time charcoal supplier was pulling a fast one on them.
But as it stands now the major brands of BP, GOEX, Schuetzen and Swiss all use a grade of potassium nitrate where the chlorides are measured in parts per million.
On to the subs.
APP, Shockey's Gold, Pinnacle and Black Mag are based on ascorbic acid and potassium nitrate. Only Black Mag's patent shows the addition of potassium perchlorate. Which makes its residue more corrosive than the other 3. APP, Shockey's Gold and Pinnacle are all made by the same company. So there is really nothing that makes one really superior compared to the others.
Blackhorn 209 was handed to me. The mfg. claimed it was not a smokeless (nitrocellulose) powder. So I had at it in the kitchen with different solvents. Turned out TO BE a nitrocellulose powder with 17 parts of an unidentified chemical used to tone it down in the gun. The unknown chemical is highly soluble in water. I just saw no need to spend another day or two in the kitchen to identify it. And given the price per pound I figured it simply was out of the picture. After reading a post or two in this thread I might just take another look at the 17 parts of the unidentified water-soluble chemical and see if that would cause corrosion.
With Hodgdon we have Pyrodex and Triple Seven. The whole patented concept in Pyrodex was the use of sodium benzoate with potassium nitrate. But to get the two to react fast enough to make it a usefull firearm propellant they had to heave in something like 17 parts of potassium perchlorate. When the powder burns the potassium perchlorate simply gives up its oxygen and remains as potassium chloride. ANY chloride will be most corrosive in the gun. Does John Boy use Alantic Ocean water to clean his guns after a shoot?? I think not.
Onto 777.
The patent on Pyrodex ran out a few years back. Then the in-line ML hunting crowd wanted faster powders. A big push came when the plastic sabots came into use in the in-line ML rifles. That 17 parts of potassium perchlorate that was converted to potassium chloride causes a lot of grief with tight fitting sabots. The little crystals of potassium chloride are scattered to the bore. When you would push a sabot down the bore the crystals would embed in the plastic. So you would reach a point where you could not get the sabot down onto the powder charge.
So what we see in 777 is a change to sodium dintitrobenzoate sulonate. Think of it as going up a notch in benzoates. This dinitrobenzoate is HIGHLY reactive with charcoal. So there is no need to heave in a bunch of potassium perchlorate to "strengthen" the powder. This makes 777 a lot LESS corrosive compared to Pyrodex. When I checked the 777 on brass plates there was no surface pitting of the brass as with Pyrodex. Hodgdon's MSDS for 777 shows potassium perchlorate. From what I saw in my steel plate and brass sheet corrosion tests I don't think it has any perchlorate in it.
With this development of 777 Hodgdon can claim that it is an improved version of Pyrodex. Makes getting it onto the market a lot cheaper than going through it as if it is an entirely new explosive composition.
The thing about potassium chloride corrosion in gun bores is that a lot of times the average shooter would never know it is happening. You can get a lot of micro-pitting of the bore which gives the surface of the metal a frosted look. This comes up to bite the shooter if the shooter switches to black powder. BP fouling will then act as if it is welded to the bore walls. Simply because the metal's surface is so rough and pitted.
Just keep in mind that ALL of these powders are based on potassium nitrate as a source of oxygen for powder combustion. As a result they produce potassium carbonate as a product of combustion. This "potash" is in itself slightly corrosive in the bore. Anything in the bore that will dissolve in water to form an electrolyte solution will be corrosive. So this gives all of these powders what might be called a baseline corrosiveness. Any chlorides present will enhance/increase this base level of corrosiveness. Potash itself will only cause a uniform shallow rusting of the surface metal. As soon as you add chlorides you can get pit corrosion that bites deep into the surface of the metal. be it steel gun barrels or fired brass cases.
This is a quote from a fellow named Lou Gram who posted it on an other forum to answer some questions after he checked it out chemically.
Last edited by lemoyne; 01-23-2010 at 07:12 PM.
01-23-2010, 07:50 PM
#36
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Lee
I have a bottle here on the counter and a bottle of APP - tried to give them away a Rhondy this summer no takers so they are still sitting here...
Lee very well written and informative discussion on powders... I certaily do not understand it all....
Check your email... I sent you some BH information see if it fits what you might be thinking...
Probably will have to magnify some of it to see it....
We know all about JSG, found out the hard way.
Lee very well written and informative discussion on powders... I certaily do not understand it all....
Check your email... I sent you some BH information see if it fits what you might be thinking...
Probably will have to magnify some of it to see it....
01-23-2010, 08:06 PM
#37
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 9,186
I'll take APP any day for cleanness/accuracy in my rifles, especially the Accura. Very easy to find here in my local area and they always have it stocked.
Ahhhhh first powerbelts, cva, now its APP
Now it looks like i will have to tackle the bh209 in a CVA. You boys sure keep me busy, you know that?
Ahhhhh first powerbelts, cva, now its APP
Now it looks like i will have to tackle the bh209 in a CVA. You boys sure keep me busy, you know that?
01-23-2010, 08:29 PM
#38
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 601
01-24-2010, 06:27 AM
#40
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location:
Posts: 313
I think any controversy with Game departments that permit other subs re: BH209 is due to the lack of any actual challenge. Unless the Co lobbies for a change, likely the only way the regs (if they do affect BH209) will be addressed is through a court challenge by an individual ticketed for using a bp sub with "nitro cellulose" .
It's not unheard of that lobbyists can influence regulations to limit competitors. Like Barbicide (that blue stuff they soak combs in) is/was named as the only suitable disinfectant in many health codes.
A recent lobbying effort close to home is allowing not only crossbows, but also crossbows with optical sights when optics had been previously prohibited on archery gear. Clearly the industry wrote the regs to match the product/marketplace.
Just my $0.02
It's not unheard of that lobbyists can influence regulations to limit competitors. Like Barbicide (that blue stuff they soak combs in) is/was named as the only suitable disinfectant in many health codes.
A recent lobbying effort close to home is allowing not only crossbows, but also crossbows with optical sights when optics had been previously prohibited on archery gear. Clearly the industry wrote the regs to match the product/marketplace.
Just my $0.02