sabotloader

spaniel

In comparison with the Barnes and especially the Nosler, wheather the bullet is boned or not it really doesn't matter. Neither the Barnes or the Nosler are bonded and they will not come apart nor will they pancake, not will they open so rapidily that they will not penetrate - the can not.

For me it really comes down to the damage that occurs once the bullet gets in. If the meplat of the bullet is large enough and the velocity exists it will cause hydrostatic shock. The more hydrostatic shock the less ability of the the animal to start his/her flight response.


I can not speak for Barnes but i can for Noslers they can hit a major bone expand to their max and continue to drive into the animal. That is what they are designed to do. Penetration with a Nosler is not an issue that that has been shown be 100's of tests and a lifelong hunting experiance. I have personally shot a bull elk at 60 yards through both shoulders (not on purpose by any means) the bullet puched the first through the left shoulder and made a much bigger hole through the right shoulder - it is out there someplace because it kept on going. Granted this wasn't a ML but it was a 200 grain semi-round nose .308 Nosler.

The only advantage you have with a SST/SW/FTP is trajectory and a given amount of energy at long distances - the bullet bonded or not can not match the terminal performance of a Nosler and I assume a Barnes. The SST/SW construction does nothing to stop over expansion, they can be pancaked. Over expansion can compensated by the shooter by shooting them faster. The greater their velocity the less chance you will have of early expansion because they will tend to pencil.

spaniel

Whether the bullet is bonded or not certainly does matter when you are talking about SWs....I've tested them and the bonded ones do hold together better. This is a comparison between different SWs, not a SW vs a Nosler or Barnes.

Noslers use the partition to hold together, SWs have to be bonded to perform in the same range as the non-bonded versions do come apart easier. I imagine even if you drove a Nosler fast enough and hit something hard enough to destroy the section in front of the partition, the rest of the bullet would hold together and do what it was designed to do -- that's why I'll be testing the ones you sent me for my fall elk hunt as soon as I can find any powder in stock!! I certainly have no reason to say a negative thing about Noslers, but that doesn't mean I can't recommend other bullets like the 300 bonded SW as well. As I've stated before, I think we try to create more differences in performance between bullets than exists in the real world. I have yet to punch a bullet through 2 lungs and have an animal travel a significant distance, and a Powerbelt driven too fast is the only sure-fire way I've found to make a bullet fail in that task.

As to the Barnes, as I said I'm not saying they won't perform well but there are not absolute facts when we are talking bullet performance so it all comes down to 1) personal experience, and 2) experience from those we feel knowledgable enough to take it from. Personally, I will not shoot a bullet that I don't have 100% confidence in, especially on animals larger than a whitetail or on an expensive hunt. The Barnes fits this category. As I've mentioned before on here, me and some buddies shot them for a couple years out of shotguns and had some very disturbing experiences. While they caused massive damage, it was too extreme and ruined a lot of meat. Penetration was relatively poor, once the bullet opened up penetration stopped quickly. Most disturbingly, I shot a nice, soft little yearling in the shoulder blade from 80 yards broadside and the bullet opened up on the bone and glanced off, never penetrating past the shoulder blade. It resulting in a long tracking job to put it down and I swore them off after that. I know the ML version is not exactly that same bullet, and have friends who use the ML bullet, but those two years of questionable experiences would always cause me to have doubt when I'm taking aim and I don't like hunting with that doubt in my head.

I've shot deer with PBs, QTs, Dead Centers, PR Keith Noses, Hornady HTPs, Hornaday XTPs, Barnes, Ball-ets, RBs, 200SW, 250SWs, 250 bonded SWs, and 300 bonded SWs I think. The PBs going too fast were the only thing that didn't perform fine. The tougher the game, the further to the tougher end of that range I'd stay but I think there are lots of acceptable choices. The buffalo were hunted to near extinction with big hunks of lead after all.

sabotloader

spaniel

My last post was a recation to your description that a Nosler or Barnes might expand to fast to penetrate. That simply is not true... i know that is the common belief for hollow point point bullets, but it does not hold true for Nosler and I think the same is generally applys to Barnes copper bullets.

Totally agree with you, my discussion was not that you were recommending a SST/SW/FTX type bullet - it was based solely on your example of penetration of Nosler or Barnes which is wrong IMO. The .458 Nosler I can offer as an example, it expands uniformily to 7/8" or there abouts and stops wheather it hits bone or not and then continues through the animal as long as their is energy is suffecient to drive it. It will function the same from 50 yards to 200 yards.

Certaily not wishing any ill luck at all, but let me tell you if you get a chance to shoot a mature bull elk in the rut while he is hung up in the rut, he will not even feel your double lung shot, for a significant amount of time. He may not even show that he has been hit - he doesn't care.

Screwbolts

Hunter4E,

I believe all the info you have gotten so far is very good!

If I was going with you there would be only one choice projectile for any of my 50 cal Muzzle loaders and If you are not a bullet caster that would be the 330 gr. Hard Cast from Harvester. They have already been proven to be perfect for all game from mice to moose and everything in between. I do have the mold to cast this very Boolit and have shoot it a lot with many great harvests.

I have also sent some to a friend In Alaska that will be using them on Grizzly this spring, and all other game that he hunts there. he will be using a Savage 10MLII but will only be shooting them to a velocity of 1800 FPS, and they will be deadly on all game at that speed. This speed is equivalent to 105 gr. of BH209 out of my T-bolt. Out of my T-Bolt and smokeless guns we have shoot many 4" 200 yard groups with this Boolit. we have also shoot many 5 to 6" groups at 300. I believe they will shoot well in your Omega.

Most of the retailers have them and they are around $8 for 20 or 30 and that includes Sabots. I use the Harvester sabot for all my shooting of the 50 smoke and smokeless poles.

spaniel

Just for clarity, it was someone before me that made a generalized comment about all wide hollowpoint bullets, not me. I was referring specifically to Barnes and not Noslers. IMHO the shape of the tip makes less difference than we pretend it does, behind that pointy tip on a SW is a nice wide cavity and they expand easily (see photos of recovered 250 SWs posted a month or so ago by someone) just not quite in the same league as a Keith Nose or similar.

I doNOT feel the Nosler would open too far to impede penetration, or any other jacketed bullet for that matter.But I hold a different opinion on Barnes. Those copper petals open up unusually wide and rarely come off-- lots of damage but I have seen it result in less than ideal penetration with a shotgun, and personally given the wide variety of good bullets we are blessed with these days I have had no reason to pay more for a bullet I trust less. Not to say I think they are bad, I just don't use them and don't reflexively recommend them when asked.

With regards to rutting bulls, I am using my tag for rifle season so they'll be pretty out of the rut by then. However I don't think any animal with deflated lungs is going to be on its feet very long, whether they realize or carethey have been hit or not. Oxygen depletion trumps hormones though hormones may gain them a few seconds. The bull I shot last year was pretty jacked up and bugling, he went down within 5 yards of where he was shot. Now if you miss the lungs and rely on sheer bleeding...well...then the more damage the better I guess as the hormones really matter then.

sabotloader

spaniel

10-4

SWThomas

No need to be aprick Tom. He's giving his opinion just like you are. However, the bullet he is giving his opinion on has proven itself. Lehigh can't claim that yet. Maybe once it's been out there a little longer and a few more animals have been successfully taken with it.

But I certainly wouldn't want a bullet engineered to fragment on impact like the Lehigh. For a moose I would personally want a bullet that retains nearly all it's weight to continue driving through the animal. Especially an animal that thick. Any of the Barnes Spit-Fire muzzleloader bullets will do that. I don't think I would trust a Powerbelt either being that they pancake pretty easily and have been known to fragment on even deer size game. A Nosler Partition would also be an excellent choice based onits ability to expand at the nose and retain nearly allits weight.

I haven't seen anyone flat out bash Lehigh in this thread yet. Most people just want better performance than the Lehigh can provide when hunting an animal the size of a moose.

ronlaughlin

Noslers don't retain all their weight. What happens is the front starts to come apart and the energy required to do this comes from the flesh of the animal, this results in eye opening, nearly unbelievable tissue damage. The back half of the bullet behind the 'partition' penetrates and penetrates and then some. People that have killed animals with lesser bullets, and write they are 'good' bullets, need to field dress an animal killed by a Nosler Partition just once during their hunting career. When i was a young fella with kids living at home i never could bring myself to spend the money on the Noslers, but they are long gone, and now i am free to purchase the very best.

Like you i am planning to kill critters this year using different bullets. The Barnes T-EZ is one bullet i will try, if i can get enough tags, and one reason is, i know you are keen on them.

Hunter4E
I hesitate to recommend a bullet for a moose because i have never killed one or seen one killed. Between my son and myself we have killed many Elk using partitions. The boy has killed a few Caribou, and a Grizzly using partitions, so beins how this is a thread about Moose bullets, and here i am, i have to recommend the Nosler Partition, and it is what i would use if i were to pursue a Moose.

spaniel

Geez, you'd think we were all a bunch of guys frustrated by the lack of open seasons or something from the way we go at each other around a few bullets.

Let's focus on the facts"

1) As much as we like to pretend, there are scant true "facts" when talking bullets, just "opinions".
2) Opinions are like some other things, everyone has got one.
3) Just because someone else's doesn't match yours, doesn't make it a personal insult
4) We all like to sling lead and make smoke.

So does it matter quite so much what that particular piece of lead (or copper) looks like? Let's reel it back a little fellas, we should all want to be friends here.

lemoyne

+1
Lee