Learning in the Rock Pit
05-10-2009, 07:32 PM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
Learning in the Rock Pit
Mother's Day - Terry went to church and I headed to the woods, to be specific Little Boulder Cr. Rock Pit. I am still trying to work all the kinks out of the Renegade and shooting PRB's
It was a beautiful day here - excellent for shooting.
Today's plan was to start @ 25 yards again and try some different things...
1) I wanted to shoot a few loads without wads
2) I wanted to shoot some different powders
3) I really wanted to shoot 100 yards and get a good final sight in.
Lyman Sight was set on the '0' graduation and on the pre-set elevation Stop... POA was always a figure 8 sight picture on the bottom of the dot.
On this 25 yard target - I added the 3" BC Taget spots and started the great experiment.
1st. group up was a group shot with 60 grains T7-3f with a .015 Cotton Patch and NO wad.
2nd group was a group shot with 60 grain T7-3f with a .015 Cotton Patch and a Wonder Wad.
3rd group was shot with 70 grains T7-3f with .015 patch and Wonder Wad.
The 70 grain group seemed to open a bit but it really could have been me.
Group 1 - 2 - 3 all shot at the center target dot with a figure 8 hold on the target... at 25 yards the dot was easy to see and easy to get a good hold.
Group 4 - Decided to try Jim Shockey Gold -3f powder - even the 3f still looks like a small gravel. Decided to shoot 80 grain of JSG and NO Wad. I did not bring the chrono - but the shot really felt ANEMIC, realy soft recoil and down on the target dot. I thought 80 grain would be somewhat close to 60 of T7. Completed the group - which really was not that bad of a group.
Group 5 - Changed to 80 grains GOEX-3f. It was definitely stronger feeling than the JSG but still not as sharp recoil as T7. Velocity might have been close to the T7 but I was shooting 20 more grains of GOEX
Group 4 & 5 shot at upper right target dot.
Last 25 yard of the afternoon I was back to 60 grains T7-3f - Patch - Wonder Wad
Shots 1 & 2 of the last group had me feeling pretty good shot #3 just had to happen....
At this point I bit the bullet and moved the target to 94 yards most I can get in the rock pit.
Since I was shooting 100 yards I moved the Elevation of the Lyman to the 3rd graduation on the scale
Group #1 - 60 grains T7-3f patch and NO Wonder Wad. Thought I would try one more group without a wad - hoping I did not need to use one. WRONG... This is a four shot group. Shot #1 really got me excited, but then shot #2 was off the edge of the paper.... Well, I was sure it was my fault so I decided to shoot 2 more to make up for it. Shot #3 really didn't help at and #4 was no better.
Group #2 - 60 grains T7-3f patch and back to a Wonder Wad. I should mention here that I had set this target with a 6" target dot, but I have to tell you it in NO WAY RESEMBLED 6" @ a 100 looking through the peep. I really was guessing where the bottom of the dot was - I feel I was pretty close on most shots.
This group was not all that bad @ 100 (for me and my eyes) but it was certainly to high (I was aiming at the bottom of the target dot) and POI was right.
Third and final group of the day. Same load as above, but I reduced the elevation to the second line on the scale and ran the windage 10 clicks left (which oddly enough on a Lyman is to turn the turrent knob right)
Shot the final group - For me I am happy packed and head to Vassar Meadows to check out how my .17 Savage would do with peepers in the meadows.
Thought I would also throw in these two pics of the Lyman. One will show the graduation plate, and remember this a 'quick release' adjustment - it is still set on the second or for me 100 yard graduation. The other picture shows the postive '0' stop which for me is set @ 25 yards.
Sorry for the length - but it was a fun day...
It was a beautiful day here - excellent for shooting.
Today's plan was to start @ 25 yards again and try some different things...
1) I wanted to shoot a few loads without wads
2) I wanted to shoot some different powders
3) I really wanted to shoot 100 yards and get a good final sight in.
Lyman Sight was set on the '0' graduation and on the pre-set elevation Stop... POA was always a figure 8 sight picture on the bottom of the dot.
On this 25 yard target - I added the 3" BC Taget spots and started the great experiment.
1st. group up was a group shot with 60 grains T7-3f with a .015 Cotton Patch and NO wad.
2nd group was a group shot with 60 grain T7-3f with a .015 Cotton Patch and a Wonder Wad.
3rd group was shot with 70 grains T7-3f with .015 patch and Wonder Wad.
The 70 grain group seemed to open a bit but it really could have been me.
Group 1 - 2 - 3 all shot at the center target dot with a figure 8 hold on the target... at 25 yards the dot was easy to see and easy to get a good hold.
Group 4 - Decided to try Jim Shockey Gold -3f powder - even the 3f still looks like a small gravel. Decided to shoot 80 grain of JSG and NO Wad. I did not bring the chrono - but the shot really felt ANEMIC, realy soft recoil and down on the target dot. I thought 80 grain would be somewhat close to 60 of T7. Completed the group - which really was not that bad of a group.
Group 5 - Changed to 80 grains GOEX-3f. It was definitely stronger feeling than the JSG but still not as sharp recoil as T7. Velocity might have been close to the T7 but I was shooting 20 more grains of GOEX
Group 4 & 5 shot at upper right target dot.
Last 25 yard of the afternoon I was back to 60 grains T7-3f - Patch - Wonder Wad
Shots 1 & 2 of the last group had me feeling pretty good shot #3 just had to happen....
At this point I bit the bullet and moved the target to 94 yards most I can get in the rock pit.
Since I was shooting 100 yards I moved the Elevation of the Lyman to the 3rd graduation on the scale
Group #1 - 60 grains T7-3f patch and NO Wonder Wad. Thought I would try one more group without a wad - hoping I did not need to use one. WRONG... This is a four shot group. Shot #1 really got me excited, but then shot #2 was off the edge of the paper.... Well, I was sure it was my fault so I decided to shoot 2 more to make up for it. Shot #3 really didn't help at and #4 was no better.
Group #2 - 60 grains T7-3f patch and back to a Wonder Wad. I should mention here that I had set this target with a 6" target dot, but I have to tell you it in NO WAY RESEMBLED 6" @ a 100 looking through the peep. I really was guessing where the bottom of the dot was - I feel I was pretty close on most shots.
This group was not all that bad @ 100 (for me and my eyes) but it was certainly to high (I was aiming at the bottom of the target dot) and POI was right.
Third and final group of the day. Same load as above, but I reduced the elevation to the second line on the scale and ran the windage 10 clicks left (which oddly enough on a Lyman is to turn the turrent knob right)
Shot the final group - For me I am happy packed and head to Vassar Meadows to check out how my .17 Savage would do with peepers in the meadows.
Thought I would also throw in these two pics of the Lyman. One will show the graduation plate, and remember this a 'quick release' adjustment - it is still set on the second or for me 100 yard graduation. The other picture shows the postive '0' stop which for me is set @ 25 yards.
Sorry for the length - but it was a fun day...
05-11-2009, 07:10 AM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Learning in the Rock Pit
Semisane
And i have no good reason why other than i might have been concentrationg more or as I would tell my atheletes more FOCUS. The 25 yard target is sort of like a gimme. And you notice when I got to three I QUIT!
Really when shooting the 25 I was really just experimenting trying to find something. When i moved the board to 100 it was much more serious because it is so easy for me to miss the whole target with a PRB at times. I lasered back to the truck @ 100 yards but later when I lasered from the bench to to the target board it was 94 yards.
I think the difference really shows up when you look at the non-wad T7 group at 25 yards and then the non-wad group @ 94 yards. You could almost somewhat live with the 25 yard group, in fact the whole time I thought #3 might have just been me and that is why I tried another non-wad group @ 94. The non-wad group @ 100 and the elevation error are why i could not shoot distances with a PRB.
My frustrations with PRB has always been in my distance yard shooting, If I am using one of GM-LRH barrels with regular TC adjustable sights and 460 grain Bull Shops I can shoot clay pigeons all day from 25 to 100 yards and seldom ever miss. I might not get a real tight group on paper but shooting the orange birds is easy. Prior to yesterday I could very seldom be consistent with a PRB @ 100. Shooting clay pigeon with a PRB was a chore and it took a lot of attempts and I had no confidence at all. Same at the Rondy shoots - short shots at larger gongs which a majority of the targets are, I could always hang in there long shots get a coin out and flip it.
Another thing that might make it a bit easier to hold is shooting 60 grains of T7, I do not think you could hunt big game with that load, but it sure is soft on the shoulder, the noise is far larger than the recoil.
Now i wonder about a barrel with a real RB twist barrel or even a smooth bore - how much difference does that make? If you are not rotating the ball as fast will it fly more accurately? When you did your ball measuring you found that not all balls are created equal so would a slower twist show less effect of these differences?
Shoot! i do not know why I even worry about it... I shoot maybe five or six local Rondy events in the summer and that is the end of my PRB shooting. I like shooting and I like to compete a bit but going in i know I am not going to win any prices because i do not do the pistol shoot or hawk throw, nor do i qualify for the period dress points. Really guess I should not get so wrapped-up in it. Just enjoy the moment!
That last group is only a tad larger than your best 25 yard group
Really when shooting the 25 I was really just experimenting trying to find something. When i moved the board to 100 it was much more serious because it is so easy for me to miss the whole target with a PRB at times. I lasered back to the truck @ 100 yards but later when I lasered from the bench to to the target board it was 94 yards.
I think the difference really shows up when you look at the non-wad T7 group at 25 yards and then the non-wad group @ 94 yards. You could almost somewhat live with the 25 yard group, in fact the whole time I thought #3 might have just been me and that is why I tried another non-wad group @ 94. The non-wad group @ 100 and the elevation error are why i could not shoot distances with a PRB.
My frustrations with PRB has always been in my distance yard shooting, If I am using one of GM-LRH barrels with regular TC adjustable sights and 460 grain Bull Shops I can shoot clay pigeons all day from 25 to 100 yards and seldom ever miss. I might not get a real tight group on paper but shooting the orange birds is easy. Prior to yesterday I could very seldom be consistent with a PRB @ 100. Shooting clay pigeon with a PRB was a chore and it took a lot of attempts and I had no confidence at all. Same at the Rondy shoots - short shots at larger gongs which a majority of the targets are, I could always hang in there long shots get a coin out and flip it.
Another thing that might make it a bit easier to hold is shooting 60 grains of T7, I do not think you could hunt big game with that load, but it sure is soft on the shoulder, the noise is far larger than the recoil.
Now i wonder about a barrel with a real RB twist barrel or even a smooth bore - how much difference does that make? If you are not rotating the ball as fast will it fly more accurately? When you did your ball measuring you found that not all balls are created equal so would a slower twist show less effect of these differences?
Shoot! i do not know why I even worry about it... I shoot maybe five or six local Rondy events in the summer and that is the end of my PRB shooting. I like shooting and I like to compete a bit but going in i know I am not going to win any prices because i do not do the pistol shoot or hawk throw, nor do i qualify for the period dress points. Really guess I should not get so wrapped-up in it. Just enjoy the moment!
05-11-2009, 07:48 AM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,918
RE: Learning in the Rock Pit
Another thing that might make it a bit easier to hold is shooting 60 grains of T7, I do not think you could hunt big game with that load,
Just enjoy the moment!
05-11-2009, 01:00 PM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 552
RE: Learning in the Rock Pit
Good shooting Sabotloader. If you notice the same Lyman 57 on my Lyman Deerstalker you'll see I have my sight smack down as far as it will go. At 100 yards shooting PRB I aim at the bottom of a 6" bull (or low on a deer around the heart) and it hits right on. I guess the only way I can get more usable adjustment is to get a higher front bead. I've been shooting it this way for a long time. I just compensate for shorter yardages. Your pictures just got me to wondering.
05-11-2009, 02:27 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Learning in the Rock Pit
Old/New
That is really a nice looking ML you have...
You are the bottom of the apeture... I did change my front sight i went to a .450 Williams Fire sight.
What load are you using in your Lyman?
That is really a nice looking ML you have...
You are the bottom of the apeture... I did change my front sight i went to a .450 Williams Fire sight.
What load are you using in your Lyman?
05-11-2009, 02:48 PM
#9
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 552
RE: Learning in the Rock Pit
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
Old/New
That is really a nice looking ML you have...
You are the bottom of the apeture... I did change my front sight i went to a .450 Williams Fire sight.
What load are you using in your Lyman?
Old/New
That is really a nice looking ML you have...
You are the bottom of the apeture... I did change my front sight i went to a .450 Williams Fire sight.
What load are you using in your Lyman?
SL,
182gr ball in front of 90gr Pyrodex RS would be a common load. I use .015 pillow ticking. Never tried a wad. This is pretty darn accurate at 100 yds. Took only 2 deer with it but shot them both at about 40 yds.
I will shoot it again when I get the chance and take some pictures.
05-11-2009, 03:22 PM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Learning in the Rock Pit
Old/New
Thanks for the information. The only reason I use the wad or have to use the wad is because of the heat created by T7. It is so intense that it will burn through a lubed patch so I have to use the wad to insulate the patch.
Thanks for the information. The only reason I use the wad or have to use the wad is because of the heat created by T7. It is so intense that it will burn through a lubed patch so I have to use the wad to insulate the patch.