BrushPopper

We call that a Texas-Heart-Shot!

lemoyne

+1
Its all in where you shoot them. Lee

nchawkeye

I've seen this as well, with several different weapons, including bows...Seems if you hit them low in the lungs you get blood quick, if not, they may run aways before you have tracking blood...

My buddies and I have shot at least 15 with the 250 SST/Shockwaves...I use 90grs of Goex or Pyrodex R-S...I finally just started popping them high in the shoulder and dropping them...We don't have tracking snow down here, just swamps and cutovers, places you don't want to go into after dark...

I will add that it's my opinion that if you don't anticipate shots with a muzzle loader over 125 yards than you will be better off with a hollow point type bullet over the tipped ones...When I shot the Barnes MZ, I had larger exit holes than I get now...I would expect that the Barnes, Hornady XTPs and the Noslers that some guys use on here would give similiar results to the Barnes...But...I've also seen
"good shots" with center fire calibers have the exit hole plug with fat, intestines, etc, which also plugs the hole...

I honestly think the trick is to pick a bullet that your gun likes, take a good shot and keep looking until you find the deer...

Horizontal Hunter

The same thing happened to me. A high shot to the vitals with a 12g slug (pass thru) and all of the blood was inside. just small drops of blood every 20-30 yards until he piled up.

Bob

spaniel

[quote]ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman

No, that is not well-known, that is the opinion of one man who has never shot this particular type of bullet into a deer. I respect your right to form your own opinions but if you are going to put it out there as well known I feel it's fair to point that out. As you mentioned we have a scorecard thread that is fair in that it simply states what happened from the person it happened to, and simply reading through it will show people have been having excellent reports with SWs and most of the "bad press" around them here comes from one who hasn't shot them. As I said I respect you and your right to form an opinion but I put a lot more weight with those who are reporting on actual experiences (which is why we have the Scorecard), and from someone who uses these bullets your opinions on their performance is not in line with what is shown to me and my fellow hunters in the field year after year.

I have shot dozens of deer with SWs, and the only type that EVER yielded anything resembling a "pencil-through" was the 300gr bonded version this year passing through the top of the lungs, ie only 4-5 inches of flesh with no bone. All those I personally hunt with have had similar luck.

I've shot many many deer with SWs, hit no bone, and seen plenty of evidence of expansion. IMHO I think this is an artifact of the fact that people with a bad experience tell 9 people on average and those with a good experience tell 2. If you have a bad experience with SWs you're a lot more likely to take the effort of logging onto Cabelas and complaining about it in their reviews than if you had a good one, that is a marketing FACT. Given the popularity of the bullet, you're going to see more about them than anything else. There are twice as many reports there on SWs combining the different offerings than a Barnes MZ for example,yet the rating is similar.

Those indicating shot placement have a valid point. I posted back during the season about this -- shots low through the heart or lower lungs are going to bleed well, because whether the lungs/heart or actively pumping blood out or the blood is just following gravity it is going to leave a trail. With a high lung shot, the only way you are going to get a good trail is a) you blow such a wide hole that you get good blood from the circulation through skin/muscles, b) the animal rolls over or does something to let gravity bring blood out those holes, or c) the lungs continue to function and aspirate blood out the holes.

Having cut my teeth on slug guns as well, you often can see Case A above where you simply blow such a large hole that you get blood from surrounding muscles. I've since shied away from needing to ruin so much meat as these slugs do if you hit a little forward and catch the shoulders. Bigger bullets are going to cause more peripheral bleeding around the wound, and until recently all 12-gauge slugs were 50cal or larger!

Case B depends on the animal lying down or rolling over. Often this does not happen.

Case C is IMHO fairly rare. Punch about any ML bullet through the lungs, and they quickly deflate and stop working. The heart continues to pump the blood into the chest cavity but it settles to the bottom where it is contained.

I've seen liver shots bleed better than high lungs. There is less open space for blood around the liver, it's forces out the holes. The chest is a big cavity to fill up once the lungs deflate.

I hunt a lot of open fields. I take a high lung when I can to avoid meat damage as they go down quicker than a heart shot in my experience. When I want the deer to drop for sure I shoot for the shoulder. 7 deer shot with Shockwaves over the previous two years, and 7 bang-flops.

Certainly, add it to the Shockwave Scorecard thread so we get a bigger sample.

Old/New

Agree...even with an arrowyou sometimes get little blood to work with if you hit high lung...at least in the beginning of the trail.

Hey BP...why don't you try a .45 for a change.

gregrn43

I dont have a lot of info to say about the SW's, this was the first year that I have ever used them. I do know that they are a very accurate bullet, my rifle shoots them extremely well. The only deer that I have taken with one was this fall. He was a 156lb. field dressed buck that I shot broadside at 50 yards half way up the chest. The buck spun around and went back the way he came and travels at the most 40 yards before dropping. When I walked to the spot he was standing, laying on the ground was a 2 inch piece of lung, the blood trail leading away was simplyimpressive, blood poured out both sides of this buck. He was shot with a 250grbonded SW. I rarely drop a buck in his tracks most travel a few yards before giving up the ghost.Most of theones that have dropped in there tracks were either hit in the spine or front shoulders, but these are shots that I only take when i have no other choice. I dont want to waste any more meat than I have to. I didnt realize there was so much debate over muzzleloading bullets. The old buffalo bullet that I used for years worked great. The only deer that I have lost with one was my fault, a classic gut shot that I made when buck fever set in on me. I knew when I pulled the trigger Ihad screwed up.In my opion if you blow thru both lungs= dead deer.

gleason.chapman

You can talk about scopes and different MLer all day, but when ya talk about the things that are doing the actual work bullets folks take it pretty personal and are very serious about it. I alsothink that people don't like ya talkin' about their pet xxxxx bullet if ya have not shot them at game and used them, and that is a valid point, however to make their choice of SW without shooting them they did the exact same thing, read articles, listen to reports of friends, shot them at the range and then used them to hunt with. The three bullets that people really get upset about are SW/SST, XTPsand PB.There are two camps on each of those bullets you either love them or you hate them and you tend to not be as objective as you think you are, becauseeveryone tend to keep evidence that supports your POV and discard evidence that doesn't. Thru the school of hard knocks with PBs I now like "strong well constructed expanding bullets that hold together well and expand well in flesh, not bone".

I do know this, most new MLing people start out MLing with absolutely NO idea of what bullet to use, they use what the guy at the store told them or use what their buddies shoot, if their buddies got them into MLing. Most have not done the research on bullet design, shot it into wet newpaper, sand or packed top soil to see if they expand, fragment or hold together well. Most will not even read struff on the Internet under Cabelas and Midway Product reviews, they just stay with their bullet until something bad happens,then they go looking as to why this bullet did this or that. They then get educated on what bullets are designed for what purpose and how to use the bullet properly. Most people have bad luck with a given bullet because their didn't use it propertly i.e. shooting PBs 295 with 150 777 pellets, shooting SW at a deer at 30 yards, etc. Once they get educated on what bullet is best for me in my hunting situations, they pick a good bullet shoot it where it is suppose to go and then get excellent results. That has been my journey at least, and none of us want to loose game, and we like to think our judgement is 100%, 'cause we are strong willed guys. I am rambling, so I will quit. Anyway buy the book "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter, A Definitive Study" and read it several times, then ask yourself why does Craig Boddington say "long shanks on a perfectly expanded bullet with no wight loss" is a thing of beauty. Why is it long shanks? Why does Al Marion, a gun writer say "pancaked bullets" are to be avoided (i.e. bullets that are inside out", totally flat). Why is it that terminal performance is with 12" of penetration, not 6"? Why doens't a fragmenting bullet work on deer? Why 300g for shoot thru when 250 is so close to 300? Why is it that 350g and high bullets are in conicals not sabots? Why did the Hornady FPB come out with 350 as it's starting bullet? So bullets and bullet perormance is one of the most debated topics on this forum, and we mostly have gentlemanly strong conversations about them. Most guys are pretty passonate about their bullets, more so than powder, chevy/fords or any other thing.
Chap

UncleNorby

There are so many variables that enter into the equation, even on "identically hit" deer, that it's almost pointless to try to make definitive statements about bullet performance, and whether there will be a bloodtrail.

One thing I know though, is if you hit at least one shoulder with a bullet that will fully penetrate, your bloodtrail will be short.

falcon

1. Thereare lots of good muzzleloading bullets out there. Pick one that your gun shoots well and give it a try. If that bullet does not work for you then try something else.

2. Follow up on your shot. Even if you are surethat you missed the animal, follow up.If you do not know how to track a wounded animal then learnfrom someone. It is my experience thatmany, if not most, hunters are not good trackers. In mylifetime i have brought home a lot of meat that folks were sure they missed.

3. Be honest with yourself and others. If you gutshot the animal then admit that you made a bad shot and follow up quickly.A wounded animal deserves to be humanely dispatched as soon as possible.

4. Folks who have a bad experience with a product tell 8-10 others of their bad experience. Folks who have a good experience with a product tell 2 or 3 othersof their experience.

Good luck with yourmuzzleloader experience.