FG

12" to kill the average man? Yeah tell that to the poor sum gun who gets shot in the leg which takes out a major artery and bleeds him to death.

You take out ONE lung its dead, and it doesnt take no 12" of penetration to take out 1 lung.

gleason.chapman

We are talking boom flop or DRT, not will it kill and run a long ways and not be recovered.

Yes, please see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

and in particular this:

According to Dr. Martin Fackler and the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA), between 12.5 and 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) of penetration in calibrated tissue simulant is optimal performance for a bullet which is meant to be used defensively, against a human adversary. They also believe that penetration is one of the most important factors when choosing a bullet (and that the number one factor is shot placement). If the bullet penetrates less than their guidelines, it is inadequate, and if it penetrates more, it is still satisfactory though not optimal. The FBI's penetration requirement is very similar at 12 to 18 inches (305 to 457 mm).
A penetration depth of 12.5 to 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) may seem excessive, but a bullet sheds velocity — and crushes a narrower hole — as it penetrates deeper, while losing velocity, so the bullet might be crushing a very small amount of tissue (simulating an "ice pick" injury) during its last two or three inches of travel, giving only between 9.5 and 12 inches of effective wide-area penetration. Also, skin is elastic and tough enough to cause a bullet to be retained in the body, even if the bullet had a relatively high velocity when it hit the skin. About 250 ft/s (76 m/s) velocity is required for an expanded hollow point bullet to puncture skin 50% of the time.
The IWBA's and FBI's penetration guidelines are to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital structure from most angles, while retaining enough velocity to generate a large diameter hole through tissue. An extreme example where penetration would be important is if the bullet first had to enter and then exit an outstretched arm before impacting the torso. A bullet with low penetration might embed itself in the arm whereas a higher penetrating bullet would penetrate the arm then enter the thorax where it would have a chance of hitting a vital organ.

This is why MLer bullets are so effective, large hole thru vital areas, with controlled expansion leaving huge wound channel. Google Dr. Martin Frackler and do some readiing on stopping power, very clear that penetration deeply with shoot thru is the key, that is why I don't like pancaked bullets, they "transfer the energy too fast" and do NOT penetrate deeply enough in the game to do damage to vitals quickly, sure they kill, but recovered game is the name of the game, not kill for buzzard food.
Chap

gleason.chapman

Please ask for the following book for Christmas from someone in your family:

http://www.riflebullets.net/

Bryce Towsley, Am Hunter ML Shooting Editor, is the author of the MLer chapter. There are two theories of "killin'":
Big and Slow is the way to go and
fast and small does it all.
Both have their champions, but in the MLer world, it is big and slow that dominates, keep that in mind to find the magic.

Also to read about a 1500 fps "magic" bullet that stops elephants and Cape Buffalo read this:

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/reviews1.asp

wish they sold the bullet package alone for MLers. So big and slow is the way to go with MLer bullets not "hard nosed" bullets that don't expand, an example of which starts with an S and ends with an e.
Chap

gleason.chapman

Humm....same story, different day, different person, just got this from a friend who just started MLing andbought a new Triumph and was shooting SWs in it:

Thanks for the advice on the Shock Wave lack of expansion at short range. I shot a big doe last night at about 50-60 yards broadside. It hit just behind the on side shoulder and exited through the off side shoulder.The exit hole was the same size as the entrance hole. Usually a bullet hitting the shoulder blade will open up some. This absolutely did not! She ran about 30-40 yards before piling up. But, it sure surprised me when I took a look at the carcass.

My question is why? My theory is that the bullet is too hard and the hollow point too small. Dead animal for sure, but long trailing jobs. Magic bullets are what ya need:

Magic=
1. accuracy cause without accuracy not else matter, shot placement with accuracy is everything
2. penetration is queen, accuracy is king, penetration much occur to get into the vitals of game, minimum of 12"
3. expansion to disrupt vital organs and give large wound channel, they measure wound channel by volume of water that it takes to fill the channel, a large would channel will disrupt blood flow to the brain quickly and produce boom flop or short death runs
4. shot thru, you need that for when you need to get quick recovery, I hunt on 17 acre little patches of land, and need to NOT trail a deer far, since I get the cops called on me if I go onto a horse pasture carrying a gun
5. Little or no fragementation.

Those are the characteristics you look for in a bullet. Read all you can on google about a perticular bullet, read the product reviews on Cabelas and MidWay and other supply houses. You will get a good sense of bullet, AVOID bullets that
1) pancake or expand to fast, they don't penetrate well, an example of which is begins with a P and end with a t. Look for large expanded head and LONG shank, this means no fragmentation and keeps the bullet driving FORWARD, not to the side. Shooting a PB at very high velocity produces fragmentation, you want a bullet that kills at 30 yards and 130 and 180 yards without any fragementation.
2) you want no pencil thru, you want expansion to produce large wound channel. A bullet that does not expand will NOT have the killing power for boom flop in most cases, you will have LONG tracking jobs.
3) gotta have accuracy, do NOT use a bullet where you cannot get 3" groups or smaller at 100 yards, most of the folks on here shoot 1.5" groups in their MLers at 100, most rifles will shoot 2" not problem and it will take some work to get to 1.5" groups, for hunting you don't need the 1.5, but obviously smaller tighter is better.
4) shoot thru, a bullet that does not shoot thru will kill the animal, but in most cases from tree stands it will be on off side under the skin. 250g HP pistol bullets are KNOWN to produce this effect of not shooting thru, 300g almost always shoot thru and I have shot thru the LENGTH of a deer with a Nosler partition. Shot thru is very important because you get good blood trail and the deer does not usually go far.

So there you have what your looking for to get 'magic bullets', in my personal opinion the following are
magic bullets:
Barnes MZ 300g
Nosler Partition 300g
Speer Gold Dot 300g
Barnes Origonal 300g

other bullets work for "broad side" bow shots, which honestly any bullet can do, it is getting into and thru the vitals from oblique angles and shoulder shots that makes a "tough strong bullet" the choice for me. If you study the bullets and identify the characteristics that make them kill well, you will find that I described above. Choose well and best wishes in your choice.
Chap

sjsfire

hntrruss, this bullet will put a end to all your worries. Barnes Expander MZ in 250 or 300gr. You'll only have to put a little effort into finding the right sabot to use for your Omega.

gleason.chapman

+1. Amen. I shoot the 300g in my Omega, 100g of Blackhorn. Chap