TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
10-04-2008, 06:37 AM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Quitman, Georgia
Posts: 128
TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
WOW, have I got a problem !!! --- I have the Black Diamond, and I absolutely cannot get it to shoot good. How bad is it ??? --- Well, it will guarantee me a 15" group at 100yds !!! AND, that is with a VX11 3x9x40 Leupold scope !!! AND I swab the barrel out after every shot !!! AND every round is seated in the barrel to the same depth. It has nothing to do with my shooting ability, as I shot 3/4" groups with my .270WSM yesterday as well, and with further tuning on the handloads I figure I will have it down to 1/2" groups --- I do know how to shoot.
This is what I have been trying with it so far. I have been loading according to mfr's specs, and I very highly suspect I got ahold of some wrong information.
#1 Load TC 250gr Sabot, 100gr of Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers
#2 Load CVA 295gr Powerlets, 100gr Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers.
There is absolutely no consistancy with either load. With a 3-shot group, the first round may hit "dead center" --- the 2nd round may be 12" to 15" low right --- the 3rd round might be off the paper.
Ordinarily, one would think the Sabot round would outshoot the Powerlet, because of a tighter seal. It pretty near takes all my Arnold Schwarzzeneger strength to get a Sabot seated.
I suspect TWO possible problems:
#1 Since Pyrodex pelletsare slower to ignite than black powder, is it possible that I should be using 209 primers instead of CCI#11 primers ??? --- If so, is there a nipple conversion kit available ??? --- So far I have not been able to find one.
#2 Is it possible, that the powder charge is insufficient to stabalize the bullets I am shooting ???
I have NEVER had a problem withother muzzleloaders like this before. At one time I had a TC Renegade, 54cal, and shot maxi-balls with a peep sight, and got 2" to 3" groups at 100yds.
IF ANYONE has any suggestions, or information, or whatever, as to what may be the cure to my problem I sure would greatly appreciate any help I can get !!!
This is what I have been trying with it so far. I have been loading according to mfr's specs, and I very highly suspect I got ahold of some wrong information.
#1 Load TC 250gr Sabot, 100gr of Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers
#2 Load CVA 295gr Powerlets, 100gr Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers.
There is absolutely no consistancy with either load. With a 3-shot group, the first round may hit "dead center" --- the 2nd round may be 12" to 15" low right --- the 3rd round might be off the paper.
Ordinarily, one would think the Sabot round would outshoot the Powerlet, because of a tighter seal. It pretty near takes all my Arnold Schwarzzeneger strength to get a Sabot seated.
I suspect TWO possible problems:
#1 Since Pyrodex pelletsare slower to ignite than black powder, is it possible that I should be using 209 primers instead of CCI#11 primers ??? --- If so, is there a nipple conversion kit available ??? --- So far I have not been able to find one.
#2 Is it possible, that the powder charge is insufficient to stabalize the bullets I am shooting ???
I have NEVER had a problem withother muzzleloaders like this before. At one time I had a TC Renegade, 54cal, and shot maxi-balls with a peep sight, and got 2" to 3" groups at 100yds.
IF ANYONE has any suggestions, or information, or whatever, as to what may be the cure to my problem I sure would greatly appreciate any help I can get !!!
10-04-2008, 07:05 AM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 601
RE: TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
I would say convert your gun to 209 ignition system if you can
Next I would double check your scope mounts---ALL of them!
And I would ask if you are loading the pellets with the Dark/Black side down?
Next I would double check your scope mounts---ALL of them!
And I would ask if you are loading the pellets with the Dark/Black side down?
10-04-2008, 07:27 AM
#3
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 92
RE: TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
If I remember correctly #11 caps aren't really "hot" enough to readily ignite the pellets.I'm not familiar with your particular gun,you might try converting it to use a hotter type nipple or musket caps?Also,try loose powder,it should help.As far as using only 2pellets thats more than enough,personally I always thought 3pellets was a waste
10-04-2008, 07:29 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MN
Posts: 1,068
RE: TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
I would think that if you're not getting any consistency at all from either load, is it possible your scope is loose? It would seem to me that if you're carefully duplicating everything, there should be some sort of consistency. If not, then maybe the POA is changing on each shot.
10-04-2008, 07:45 AM
#5
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
Clearcut-
#1 Load TC 250gr Sabot, 100gr of Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers would be a great load, BUT you are not getting consistant ignition shooting pellets and a #11 cap. In my Black Diamond XR I shoot the same load. A 250 grain Shockwave (standard model with black sabot and not the Hornady SST as they are about near impossible to load) and 100 grains of LOOSE Pyrdoex RS.
#2 Load CVA 295gr Powerlets, 100gr Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers. again, if you're shooting #11 caps and pellets, I suspect that is your problem. Pellets are really made to be ignited with 209 primers. No matter what manufacturers might claim to sell a rifle. Pellets need a large burst of flame. The #11 just does not do that. With Powerbelts, get some loose powder, whether it is Pyrodex RS or Triple Se7en 2f and start with 80 grains of loose powder. I think you will see a great increase in accuracy, less fowling, and still have plenty of energy for them long shots.
Ordinarily, one would think the Sabot round would outshoot the Powerlet, because of a tighter seal. It pretty near takes all my Arnold Schwarzzeneger strength to get a Sabot seated.
this statement also bothers me. Shockwaves are not hard to load. BUT the first time I bought Shockwaves I bought Hornady SST's. Same bullet but different sabot. I broke a short starter that day trying to get them into the barrel. One I had to literally BEAT down the barrel with a wooden mallet in order to seat it so I could shoot it out of the barrel. I went to T/C Shockwaves and it was much better. If you have a really tight bore, get some EZ glide or superglide (yellow sabot) Shockwaves and try them.
I suspect TWO possible problems:
#1 Since Pyrodex pelletsare slower to ignite than black powder, is it possible that I should be using 209 primers instead of CCI#11 primers ??? --- If so, is there a nipple conversion kit available ??? --- So far I have not been able to find one.
I think you have basically figured out your own problem. Pellets are harder to ignite. So if you want to shoot pellets, then get a 209 Primer Nipple. Its the same breech plug mind you, just a different NIPPLE. They sell them at Mid South Shooters Supply, Thompson Center Arms Store, Midway USA, etc. It has a spring loaded mouth, you should also get a capper/decapper. Get the CVA straight bar model as you can work them out better with a metal decapper then the plastic ones T/C sells. Also get a RED DOG BONE capper. It will carry 10 209 primers and makes it easy to load the breech, even with that excellent scope.
#2 Is it possible, that the powder charge is insufficient to stabalize the bullets I am shooting ??? No. 100 grains of powder is plenty in most cases to stabalize a projectile. Even 80 grains is plenty. It is the pellets.
A couple other things to keep in mind when shooting a Black Diamond. Never rest the BARREL of the rifle on the front part of your shooting support. You have a free floating barrel there, so let it float. Rest the stock only. Also try to rest in the same place each and every time. But since you are a shooter, I am sure you knew that. Just thought I would remind you.
Also after ten rounds of shooting, move that breech plug back and fourth. These rifles like to seize breech plugs. Ben there, done it, own the T-shirt. Broke my first cheap breech plug wrench the first day as well on a seized plug.
Next question.. how old are your pellets? Pellets get old and they seem to get old fast. If they are last years pellets, I would not trust them too much. Although if you store them right (in vaccum sealer bags .. Food Saver Storage System) they seem to stay dry and fresh enough. If you have doubts, replace them. I personally shoot Pyrodex RS or Triple Se7en 2f out of my Black Diamond XR and it is one of the best shooting rifles I own. My load is 110 grains of loose Pyrodex RS and a 250 grain Shockwave. Excellent accuracy .
If you want to stay with the #11 caps (and I see no reason to change) be sure to start all your shooting on a clean dry barrel. Also be careful of the caps. Not all caps are created equal. I like the CCI Magnums for instance, but refuse to shoot the CCI standard caps. RWS 1075 are also great caps as are the Remington 40% hotter (they had to make them hotter because they did not work before) Use only loose powder, and see if that does not make that BD start to behave a little better for you.
It sounds like you're swabbing correct, and every thing else. I really suspect the pellets in your case. Good luck and keep us posted.
#1 Load TC 250gr Sabot, 100gr of Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers would be a great load, BUT you are not getting consistant ignition shooting pellets and a #11 cap. In my Black Diamond XR I shoot the same load. A 250 grain Shockwave (standard model with black sabot and not the Hornady SST as they are about near impossible to load) and 100 grains of LOOSE Pyrdoex RS.
#2 Load CVA 295gr Powerlets, 100gr Pyrodex, CCI#11 primers. again, if you're shooting #11 caps and pellets, I suspect that is your problem. Pellets are really made to be ignited with 209 primers. No matter what manufacturers might claim to sell a rifle. Pellets need a large burst of flame. The #11 just does not do that. With Powerbelts, get some loose powder, whether it is Pyrodex RS or Triple Se7en 2f and start with 80 grains of loose powder. I think you will see a great increase in accuracy, less fowling, and still have plenty of energy for them long shots.
Ordinarily, one would think the Sabot round would outshoot the Powerlet, because of a tighter seal. It pretty near takes all my Arnold Schwarzzeneger strength to get a Sabot seated.
this statement also bothers me. Shockwaves are not hard to load. BUT the first time I bought Shockwaves I bought Hornady SST's. Same bullet but different sabot. I broke a short starter that day trying to get them into the barrel. One I had to literally BEAT down the barrel with a wooden mallet in order to seat it so I could shoot it out of the barrel. I went to T/C Shockwaves and it was much better. If you have a really tight bore, get some EZ glide or superglide (yellow sabot) Shockwaves and try them.
I suspect TWO possible problems:
#1 Since Pyrodex pelletsare slower to ignite than black powder, is it possible that I should be using 209 primers instead of CCI#11 primers ??? --- If so, is there a nipple conversion kit available ??? --- So far I have not been able to find one.
I think you have basically figured out your own problem. Pellets are harder to ignite. So if you want to shoot pellets, then get a 209 Primer Nipple. Its the same breech plug mind you, just a different NIPPLE. They sell them at Mid South Shooters Supply, Thompson Center Arms Store, Midway USA, etc. It has a spring loaded mouth, you should also get a capper/decapper. Get the CVA straight bar model as you can work them out better with a metal decapper then the plastic ones T/C sells. Also get a RED DOG BONE capper. It will carry 10 209 primers and makes it easy to load the breech, even with that excellent scope.
#2 Is it possible, that the powder charge is insufficient to stabalize the bullets I am shooting ??? No. 100 grains of powder is plenty in most cases to stabalize a projectile. Even 80 grains is plenty. It is the pellets.
A couple other things to keep in mind when shooting a Black Diamond. Never rest the BARREL of the rifle on the front part of your shooting support. You have a free floating barrel there, so let it float. Rest the stock only. Also try to rest in the same place each and every time. But since you are a shooter, I am sure you knew that. Just thought I would remind you.
Also after ten rounds of shooting, move that breech plug back and fourth. These rifles like to seize breech plugs. Ben there, done it, own the T-shirt. Broke my first cheap breech plug wrench the first day as well on a seized plug.
Next question.. how old are your pellets? Pellets get old and they seem to get old fast. If they are last years pellets, I would not trust them too much. Although if you store them right (in vaccum sealer bags .. Food Saver Storage System) they seem to stay dry and fresh enough. If you have doubts, replace them. I personally shoot Pyrodex RS or Triple Se7en 2f out of my Black Diamond XR and it is one of the best shooting rifles I own. My load is 110 grains of loose Pyrodex RS and a 250 grain Shockwave. Excellent accuracy .
If you want to stay with the #11 caps (and I see no reason to change) be sure to start all your shooting on a clean dry barrel. Also be careful of the caps. Not all caps are created equal. I like the CCI Magnums for instance, but refuse to shoot the CCI standard caps. RWS 1075 are also great caps as are the Remington 40% hotter (they had to make them hotter because they did not work before) Use only loose powder, and see if that does not make that BD start to behave a little better for you.
It sounds like you're swabbing correct, and every thing else. I really suspect the pellets in your case. Good luck and keep us posted.
10-04-2008, 10:09 AM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
Its proably the pellets, any thing that loads so hard you want to pound on it wont shoot really good anyway so get the right thickness sabot. There is one other possability and that a loose sight system or a scope with the guts broke loose. Lee
10-04-2008, 05:21 PM
#7
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Quitman, Georgia
Posts: 128
RE: TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
A wealth of information --- thank you to everyone !!! I will be starting on the solution Monday a.m. I am going to try the Pyrodex RS powder, CCI #11 Mag caps, and 250gr Shockwave sabot bullets.
My scope screws were all tight, and actually I had just taken it off of my .270WSM, andput on a 4x12x50 Nikon I had on it.
I don't know how long it will take me to acquire everything I need, but I will post an update onthe results I get.
So far, I have found everything I need, except the 209 nipple, in my Midway catalog.
OH, almost forgot, for the dumb question of the day award --- Do you use the same powder measure for Pyrodex, that you use for black powder ???
My scope screws were all tight, and actually I had just taken it off of my .270WSM, andput on a 4x12x50 Nikon I had on it.
I don't know how long it will take me to acquire everything I need, but I will post an update onthe results I get.
So far, I have found everything I need, except the 209 nipple, in my Midway catalog.
OH, almost forgot, for the dumb question of the day award --- Do you use the same powder measure for Pyrodex, that you use for black powder ???
10-04-2008, 05:45 PM
#9
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: TC Black Diamond --- HELP !!!
That is for the 209 and I think you need a special striker. Call Thompson Center Arms if you can not find them. They sell all the things you would need to shoot 209. BUT I think if you're shooting loose Pyrodex RS, even with the #11 you will get good results.
This was after shooting 30 rounds that day. The rifle was so dirty, I had to clean the hammer striker and breech area just to make the rifle fire. But I shoot alot of Goex.
