Winchester Apex
12-19-2007, 11:59 AM
#21
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 5
RE: Winchester Apex
Frontier gander I did my home work
Yes I do know; I even listed the gun involved CVA’s (Apollo) and I agree other companies have had problems but none to the point of shutting down due to lawsuits. Toby is one in a million, TC changed there specs and uses there own foundry. NOT all Spanish barrels (Bergara) are bad, even if one barrel failed not all barrels from that manufacturer are bad.
But be aware that it is unclear what the bursting PSI is of the European 'proof testing'. So it is unknown for certain how safe they are if subjected to the pressures created by 150 grain max loads. The minimum pressure and barrel strengths are surmised to be 1.5x that amount. The standard CVA/Winchester mark is 700 kp/cm² - that is STAMPED on the barrel! Roughly equal to 10,000 PSI, even a 1.5x multiplication factor as some suggest would mean the barrel is safe for 15,000 PSI. Yet, that same gun's instructions call for a max load of 150 grains of BP, which depending on the projectile; will result in over 20,000 PSI easy (Lyman Ballistic Laboratories shows a minimum of 25,000 PSI peak pressures in a three pellet load depending on the projectile). I'm not trying to cause an argument but the math does NOT add up for me and its fact not an opinion.
The Spanish proof house (House of Edier) will proof any barrel to any pressure you want if you pay and increased price for each level of testing. If you want a barrel series tested to 100,000 they would attempt it but you will pay an additional price. BPI (CVA), Traditions, and A&H all use Spanish barrels true. However it is my understanding that A&H has since switched to a higher proofed barrel with special steel or heat treatment or both. CVA and Traditions have stayed with the minimum standard.
Neither BPI (CVA) nor Traditions actually build their gun that is done in Spain these two companies market the product in the US. They are not American made and that opens a whole other can of worms.Currently BPI (CVA) does not have testing facilities in the US this is the main difference the other companies test and post there results based on US specs. You know this whole thing could be put to bed if BPI (CVA) and Traditions would step up to doing some legitimate testing and report the results.
The Savage 10ML-II is the best built front loader of them all, using the Savage magnum center fire barrel as a starting point
TC’s foundry operates in compliance with MIL-I-45208 and MIL-C-45662 specs. The Encore and Pro hunter have Bergara Barrels but are tested in the US to the above specs
Knight uses Green Mountain barrels as well as Ruger
All threetested in the US and published do I need to go on. It all comes down to an informed decision by the shooter if the price is good and you feel comfortable buy it but don’t think just because it says Winchester its quality.
My 2 cents
Yes I do know; I even listed the gun involved CVA’s (Apollo) and I agree other companies have had problems but none to the point of shutting down due to lawsuits. Toby is one in a million, TC changed there specs and uses there own foundry. NOT all Spanish barrels (Bergara) are bad, even if one barrel failed not all barrels from that manufacturer are bad.
But be aware that it is unclear what the bursting PSI is of the European 'proof testing'. So it is unknown for certain how safe they are if subjected to the pressures created by 150 grain max loads. The minimum pressure and barrel strengths are surmised to be 1.5x that amount. The standard CVA/Winchester mark is 700 kp/cm² - that is STAMPED on the barrel! Roughly equal to 10,000 PSI, even a 1.5x multiplication factor as some suggest would mean the barrel is safe for 15,000 PSI. Yet, that same gun's instructions call for a max load of 150 grains of BP, which depending on the projectile; will result in over 20,000 PSI easy (Lyman Ballistic Laboratories shows a minimum of 25,000 PSI peak pressures in a three pellet load depending on the projectile). I'm not trying to cause an argument but the math does NOT add up for me and its fact not an opinion.
The Spanish proof house (House of Edier) will proof any barrel to any pressure you want if you pay and increased price for each level of testing. If you want a barrel series tested to 100,000 they would attempt it but you will pay an additional price. BPI (CVA), Traditions, and A&H all use Spanish barrels true. However it is my understanding that A&H has since switched to a higher proofed barrel with special steel or heat treatment or both. CVA and Traditions have stayed with the minimum standard.
Neither BPI (CVA) nor Traditions actually build their gun that is done in Spain these two companies market the product in the US. They are not American made and that opens a whole other can of worms.Currently BPI (CVA) does not have testing facilities in the US this is the main difference the other companies test and post there results based on US specs. You know this whole thing could be put to bed if BPI (CVA) and Traditions would step up to doing some legitimate testing and report the results.
The Savage 10ML-II is the best built front loader of them all, using the Savage magnum center fire barrel as a starting point
TC’s foundry operates in compliance with MIL-I-45208 and MIL-C-45662 specs. The Encore and Pro hunter have Bergara Barrels but are tested in the US to the above specs
Knight uses Green Mountain barrels as well as Ruger
All threetested in the US and published do I need to go on. It all comes down to an informed decision by the shooter if the price is good and you feel comfortable buy it but don’t think just because it says Winchester its quality.
My 2 cents
12-19-2007, 08:49 PM
#22
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Winchester Apex
I'll no longer waste my time on this topic. You or anyone else has no 100% dead on balls accurate Proof of whats done in the BPI factorys or i should say, who actually makes the barrel for them.
Oh and the 150 grain mag loads rated for the cva's is with pellets only and a 300 grain sabot.
100 grains loose powder with a max conical weight of 400 grains.
Talk to Toby Bridges about his Savage.
Oh and the 150 grain mag loads rated for the cva's is with pellets only and a 300 grain sabot.
100 grains loose powder with a max conical weight of 400 grains.
Talk to Toby Bridges about his Savage.
