Winchester Apex
12-18-2007, 11:36 AM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 771
RE: Winchester Apex
ORIGINAL: frontier gander
Is CVA's inspection better now? Big time better.
Is CVA's inspection better now? Big time better.
Not wishing to pick a fight, just would like you to substantiate your claim.
12-18-2007, 11:48 AM
#12
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Winchester Apex
well, the first shipment of the cva elites, 5000 to be exact, were sent back because the inspecter wasnt happy with the quality they sent him.
Plus we dont see any new model cva's having barrel problems now do we?
Plus we dont see any new model cva's having barrel problems now do we?
12-18-2007, 12:01 PM
#14
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 601
RE: Winchester Apex
The Bergara barrels are the only ones I would trust from BPI/CVA. They are the redeeming factor for CVA. They have made the CVA name, respectable again.
As long as Knight, TC, and Savage are still in business, I won't bother with CVA.
As long as Knight, TC, and Savage are still in business, I won't bother with CVA.
12-18-2007, 01:40 PM
#15
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 771
RE: Winchester Apex
I believe the Bergara (also made in Spain)barrels are only available on the CVA Optima Elite whichwas engineered as a centerfire frame from the beginning andshould conformtonorth american centerfirestandards (SAMMI). The lions share of CVA products are not Bergara barreled(inlcuding the Win Apex in the beginning of the thread).
Also Bergara is not indiginous to CVA Optima Elite, they are also marketing barrels for the T/C Encore frame. Good for them.
Yes their (Bergara)website does claim to beguaranteed betteraccuracy than a factory barrel and superior quality. However, does not quantify or qualifyhow this achieved nor backed up. Not saying Bergara barrels are not spectacular, but other than website claims not sure if they are the next best thing to sliced bread. They may very well be but FG, you are going on as if these claims are factual and I still wonder how you substantiate this.
http://www.bergarabarrels.com/
No, thankfully theredoes not seem to be the catastrophic problems of the past with CVA or other ML makers. However, having owned CVA hardware in the past and having worked on a bunch of CVA's over the years gives me the impression that their quality is not something that I would care to invest in.
If you or other folks wish to, fine.
In fact, I never said "don't buy CVA". I just said that I did not want to.
Also Bergara is not indiginous to CVA Optima Elite, they are also marketing barrels for the T/C Encore frame. Good for them.
Yes their (Bergara)website does claim to beguaranteed betteraccuracy than a factory barrel and superior quality. However, does not quantify or qualifyhow this achieved nor backed up. Not saying Bergara barrels are not spectacular, but other than website claims not sure if they are the next best thing to sliced bread. They may very well be but FG, you are going on as if these claims are factual and I still wonder how you substantiate this.
http://www.bergarabarrels.com/
No, thankfully theredoes not seem to be the catastrophic problems of the past with CVA or other ML makers. However, having owned CVA hardware in the past and having worked on a bunch of CVA's over the years gives me the impression that their quality is not something that I would care to invest in.
If you or other folks wish to, fine.
In fact, I never said "don't buy CVA". I just said that I did not want to.
12-18-2007, 02:05 PM
#16
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Winchester Apex
ever take a took at a winchester muzzleloader and compair it to a cva? The quality is deff. a lot better. I know this because i actually own a winchester. This is actually amusing about the spanish barrels. I dont see anyone complaining about the spanish barrels on the traditions and never see any complaints about them going off. You brought up the subject of cva having bad barrels, which actually is incorrect, so....
Cant call'em bad when they are the #1 selling brand muzzleloader.
On another forum, a guys brand new traditions flintlock wouldnt spark, everyone talked down on this lock, cheaply made, poor customer service blah blah blah. I related my experience that i got from traditions, he took the rifle back to the store he bought it, They called traditions and guess what? He got the service i did, but better. The store replaced the frizzen right then and there free of charge. Off topic but hey, you're the one that took a left turn and got it started that way
Cant call'em bad when they are the #1 selling brand muzzleloader.
On another forum, a guys brand new traditions flintlock wouldnt spark, everyone talked down on this lock, cheaply made, poor customer service blah blah blah. I related my experience that i got from traditions, he took the rifle back to the store he bought it, They called traditions and guess what? He got the service i did, but better. The store replaced the frizzen right then and there free of charge. Off topic but hey, you're the one that took a left turn and got it started that way
12-19-2007, 10:38 AM
#19
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: michigan
Posts: 200
RE: Winchester Apex
wow i didnt know people hated CVA guns that much!! i dont,i like my cva firebolt but love my winchester apex and got rid of my piece of junk thompson black diamond years ago.all but a couple of my friends and family all have CVA muzzleloaders and are very happy with them.looking at my apex i dont why that would be considered a cheap made, dangerous to your life barrel!
12-19-2007, 11:19 AM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 771
RE: Winchester Apex
I did not bring up the bad barrels from CVA or any other company. I said that I did not disagree with that statement.
In fact, I think (my .02) that it appears (as only I have handled and closely inspected) that CVA, Traditions, Etc have improved their quality substantially. However, at this time I have not noticed enough of an overall improvement that I would care to invest in nor is there a product that I am interested in other than an ML from Traditions.
Also in fact, I was really dissapointed to see CVA drop the traditional sidelocks from their product lineup. What a shame.
There is merit in this discussion as it's important for folks to know more about the products from all companies and for folks to share their experiences. I have come very close to purchasing a Traditions Pursuit Pro XLT. The only stumbling block for me so far is the trigger pull on the ones that I have handled measured out at 7+ pounds. Too heavy for me. Traditionsanswer is they will lower the trigger pull to 4 pounds for not only a fee but I pay for the shipping. I think the ML should have a 3-4 pound triggerto begin with, so I have an issue of having to pay extra for a feature that I feel should be equipped with anyway.
Some folks could care less about a trigger, I however do care. I would not purchase an ML from any company with a heavy trigger.
So for Traditions, I see this as a gap in customer service and quality as the ML should not pass musterwith a heavy trigger or should nothave the customer bear the cost of their lack of quality assurance.
As far as beingthe #1 ML company, that's true CVA is #1 in sales and have been for some time. The reason for this is (in my view) is more the price point than the superior quality and overall reputationas compared to other companies.It was CVA's agreement with Walmart that propelled the company to #1 in sales. A very inexpensive entry level ML. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has several hundred dollars to invest in an ML, so the entry level ML serves an important need.
The difference I have noticed between Winchester and CVA models is with overall finish, hardware and furniture (sights and so on) which is important in my view, as if you look at the lowest priced ML's, they typically have the cheapest fitment, finish and hardware. Still ok if that's what someone wants. Not for me so say what one person will want versus what I would want for myself.
The more ML makers that are making decent product the better in my view. I only wish there were more companies offeringproduction traditional ML's.
As far as left turns, I am not a NASCAR fan so while I do make a left hand turn on occassion, I do not do it by design.
Tahquamenon
In fact, I think (my .02) that it appears (as only I have handled and closely inspected) that CVA, Traditions, Etc have improved their quality substantially. However, at this time I have not noticed enough of an overall improvement that I would care to invest in nor is there a product that I am interested in other than an ML from Traditions.
Also in fact, I was really dissapointed to see CVA drop the traditional sidelocks from their product lineup. What a shame.
There is merit in this discussion as it's important for folks to know more about the products from all companies and for folks to share their experiences. I have come very close to purchasing a Traditions Pursuit Pro XLT. The only stumbling block for me so far is the trigger pull on the ones that I have handled measured out at 7+ pounds. Too heavy for me. Traditionsanswer is they will lower the trigger pull to 4 pounds for not only a fee but I pay for the shipping. I think the ML should have a 3-4 pound triggerto begin with, so I have an issue of having to pay extra for a feature that I feel should be equipped with anyway.
Some folks could care less about a trigger, I however do care. I would not purchase an ML from any company with a heavy trigger.
So for Traditions, I see this as a gap in customer service and quality as the ML should not pass musterwith a heavy trigger or should nothave the customer bear the cost of their lack of quality assurance.
As far as beingthe #1 ML company, that's true CVA is #1 in sales and have been for some time. The reason for this is (in my view) is more the price point than the superior quality and overall reputationas compared to other companies.It was CVA's agreement with Walmart that propelled the company to #1 in sales. A very inexpensive entry level ML. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has several hundred dollars to invest in an ML, so the entry level ML serves an important need.
The difference I have noticed between Winchester and CVA models is with overall finish, hardware and furniture (sights and so on) which is important in my view, as if you look at the lowest priced ML's, they typically have the cheapest fitment, finish and hardware. Still ok if that's what someone wants. Not for me so say what one person will want versus what I would want for myself.
The more ML makers that are making decent product the better in my view. I only wish there were more companies offeringproduction traditional ML's.
As far as left turns, I am not a NASCAR fan so while I do make a left hand turn on occassion, I do not do it by design.
Tahquamenon