wind drift or too much powder????
11-24-2007, 05:46 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: southwest Ohio
Posts: 1,047
wind drift or too much powder????
Gun season opens here Monday, so I decided to stick a scope on my new Traditions .50 barrel I got for the pursuit and try it. It has shot great groups with f-o sights, and a red-dot did good, too. I bought a set of T/C Gorilla Grip see-through rings & bases and mounted a new 4X Alpen scope on it yesterday. Headed (actually rushed - I didn't have much time to spare) to the range and used the f-o sights to get the crosshairs on target. Fired 1 shot at 50 yards and was a few inches high, so I lowered the adjustment and tried again. About 2" high - perfect! Move target to 100 yards. Shot 1, dead center 1" high - shot 2, 2 1/2" left 2" high - shot 3, 1/2" right 1" high.Elevation is right where I want it, but the horizontal stringing has me puzzled. I didn't have time to shoot more yesterday, but I got thinking about it on the way home. The wind was gusting a little while I was shooting. I had increased the powder charge of T-7 fromthe 90 I had used previouslyto 100 grains behind the 300 gr XTPs I plan to hunt with.
Looks like another trip to the range before the opener. The group was acceptable for vertical measurement (about 1") but the horizontal size (about 3") is more than I care for. The wind was gusting, but not really all that strong (guessing not over 15mph on the gusts). The stringing being horizontal has me thinking wind, but the extra 10 grains of powder could be a factor.
OK - I'll admit I'm addicted to muzzleloading.
Just can't quit with one trip to the range, there's always a reason to have another....... and another.......and another.................................
Should I look for a MA meeting or just head back to the range?????
Looks like another trip to the range before the opener. The group was acceptable for vertical measurement (about 1") but the horizontal size (about 3") is more than I care for. The wind was gusting, but not really all that strong (guessing not over 15mph on the gusts). The stringing being horizontal has me thinking wind, but the extra 10 grains of powder could be a factor.
OK - I'll admit I'm addicted to muzzleloading.
Just can't quit with one trip to the range, there's always a reason to have another....... and another.......and another.................................Should I look for a MA meeting or just head back to the range?????
11-24-2007, 06:29 AM
#2
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 141
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
Try it in no wind if you can and see if it groups better with one charge or the other. Yes the wind could move the bullet a couple of inches even at 50 yards. At 100 yards with a 15 mile crosswind it would be around 4" so a couple at 50 is possible; I just don't understand how one is left of the bull and one is right by that much; it may be that the 100 grain load is opening it up too much. Wind affects the bullets more than most realize; they are not lazers; once velocity starts to drop at the longer ranges it is significant and all shooters need to know within reason what it is. Try different charge rates until you find your most accurate load; or a hotter load with acceptable accuracy perhaps for a hunting load. All guns will show a preference for a certain loading; it's barrel vibration much like a tuning fork; you want a load that exits when the barrel vibrations are consistantly at the top or the bottom of the curve; Iknow we don't have the equipment to measure the curve but that's the principlebehind it.
Go to the Hornady Bullet website and run the ballistics through their program. You need to know the bc, weight, and velocity for your load and change the wind speed and sight-in ranges. I use the handgun charts as it breaks it down into 25 yard increments.
Go to the Hornady Bullet website and run the ballistics through their program. You need to know the bc, weight, and velocity for your load and change the wind speed and sight-in ranges. I use the handgun charts as it breaks it down into 25 yard increments.
11-24-2007, 08:26 AM
#3
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
ORIGINAL: wabi
Gun season opens here Monday, so I decided to stick a scope on my new Traditions .50 barrel I got for the pursuit and try it. It has shot great groups with f-o sights, and a red-dot did good, too. I bought a set of T/C Gorilla Grip see-through rings & bases and mounted a new 4X Alpen scope on it yesterday. Headed (actually rushed - I didn't have much time to spare) to the range and used the f-o sights to get the crosshairs on target. Fired 1 shot at 50 yards and was a few inches high, so I lowered the adjustment and tried again. About 2" high - perfect! Move target to 100 yards. Shot 1, dead center 1" high - shot 2, 2 1/2" left 2" high - shot 3, 1/2" right 1" high.Elevation is right where I want it, but the horizontal stringing has me puzzled. I didn't have time to shoot more yesterday, but I got thinking about it on the way home. The wind was gusting a little while I was shooting. I had increased the powder charge of T-7 fromthe 90 I had used previouslyto 100 grains behind the 300 gr XTPs I plan to hunt with.
Looks like another trip to the range before the opener. The group was acceptable for vertical measurement (about 1") but the horizontal size (about 3") is more than I care for. The wind was gusting, but not really all that strong (guessing not over 15mph on the gusts). The stringing being horizontal has me thinking wind, but the extra 10 grains of powder could be a factor.
OK - I'll admit I'm addicted to muzzleloading. Just can't quit with one trip to the range, there's always a reason to have another....... and another.......and another.................................
Should I look for a MA meeting or just head back to the range?????
Gun season opens here Monday, so I decided to stick a scope on my new Traditions .50 barrel I got for the pursuit and try it. It has shot great groups with f-o sights, and a red-dot did good, too. I bought a set of T/C Gorilla Grip see-through rings & bases and mounted a new 4X Alpen scope on it yesterday. Headed (actually rushed - I didn't have much time to spare) to the range and used the f-o sights to get the crosshairs on target. Fired 1 shot at 50 yards and was a few inches high, so I lowered the adjustment and tried again. About 2" high - perfect! Move target to 100 yards. Shot 1, dead center 1" high - shot 2, 2 1/2" left 2" high - shot 3, 1/2" right 1" high.Elevation is right where I want it, but the horizontal stringing has me puzzled. I didn't have time to shoot more yesterday, but I got thinking about it on the way home. The wind was gusting a little while I was shooting. I had increased the powder charge of T-7 fromthe 90 I had used previouslyto 100 grains behind the 300 gr XTPs I plan to hunt with.
Looks like another trip to the range before the opener. The group was acceptable for vertical measurement (about 1") but the horizontal size (about 3") is more than I care for. The wind was gusting, but not really all that strong (guessing not over 15mph on the gusts). The stringing being horizontal has me thinking wind, but the extra 10 grains of powder could be a factor.
OK - I'll admit I'm addicted to muzzleloading.
Just can't quit with one trip to the range, there's always a reason to have another....... and another.......and another.................................Should I look for a MA meeting or just head back to the range?????
11-24-2007, 11:17 AM
#4
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
If you shoot on a calm day and it does the same thing.. increase the powder charge about 5-10 grains and see if the stringing does not stop. But since it shot so well before with the open sights, I would guess it is the wind making all your troubles. I've had some of the bullets move off center of the bull as much as three inches in a good wind gust.
11-24-2007, 11:28 AM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
wabi
When you were getting the stringing - and, just throwing this out,anythime I see stringing my first thought is always stock pressure on the barrel someplace along the forearm, but any way did you try a shot with your open sights to verify the POI had not changed with them also.
And I also would tell you wind drift is certainly a factor - perhaps the most forgotten factor when it comes to shooting ML projectiles....
When you were getting the stringing - and, just throwing this out,anythime I see stringing my first thought is always stock pressure on the barrel someplace along the forearm, but any way did you try a shot with your open sights to verify the POI had not changed with them also.
And I also would tell you wind drift is certainly a factor - perhaps the most forgotten factor when it comes to shooting ML projectiles....
11-24-2007, 11:42 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
I would say that you really can't base too much analysis on just three shots. I plotted the hits as you've described, and what you had (correct me if I'm wrong) was two shots very close about 1" above the bull, with one about 2" L, 2.5" H from the bull. Or, in other words, about 2.75" left and 1" higher than the center of the closer two shots. It the wind was gusty, I'd say that the chances are good that you just fired right as the a wind gust came up. Blowing a low BC ML bullet 2.5" off course at 100 yards is not that hard for a 15mph wind to do. Either that or it could just be a flyer. They happen sometimes for reasons that only God knows. There are a dozen things with ML's that might cause a flyer that's a total of about 3" out of the group. You already said you were in a hurry, after all.
My recommendation would be to go back to the range on a calm day (early AM is usually best) when you have ample time, so you can go slow and concentrate on every aspect of loading and shooting and can put more than 3 rounds down range. Don't change anything yet. Shoot another 5 shot group without changing anything. THEN judge the group. Chances are you've just got a flyer. If the group is showing obvious left-right stringing (not just a big group centered around a point) that didn't exist with open sights, then the first thing I'd check is the scope mounts. Make sure the screws are tight. If they are loose, you might want to remount the scope and use a dab of Loc-Tite Blue on each screw.
Mike
My recommendation would be to go back to the range on a calm day (early AM is usually best) when you have ample time, so you can go slow and concentrate on every aspect of loading and shooting and can put more than 3 rounds down range. Don't change anything yet. Shoot another 5 shot group without changing anything. THEN judge the group. Chances are you've just got a flyer. If the group is showing obvious left-right stringing (not just a big group centered around a point) that didn't exist with open sights, then the first thing I'd check is the scope mounts. Make sure the screws are tight. If they are loose, you might want to remount the scope and use a dab of Loc-Tite Blue on each screw.
Mike
11-24-2007, 01:21 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: southwest Ohio
Posts: 1,047
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
Back to the range today and switched to 100 grains of Pyrodex R/S behing the 300 gr XTPs. No wind to worry about and the groups were much better. Made a couple scope adjustments and my final group at 100 yards was two shots touching (figure 8) and the third 1" left, and I called the third one when I touched it offas I pulled it slightly. [:@]
Since season opens Monday I'm going to use that load for now.
One odd thing - the crud ring was worse with the Pyrodex R/S than T-7 ffg.
Also tried one shot without cleaning between shots and it really blew out of the group (3" low/right).
Since season opens Monday I'm going to use that load for now.
One odd thing - the crud ring was worse with the Pyrodex R/S than T-7 ffg.
Also tried one shot without cleaning between shots and it really blew out of the group (3" low/right).
11-24-2007, 02:43 PM
#8
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location:
Posts: 492
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
Sounds like you found your answer. AND that you will do best with a clean barrel.
But If I were you, I would also be encouraged by the fact that even on a windy day and with a dirty barrel, you're able to put bullets into the kill zone at 100 yards. That ain't all bad!
Good Luck when you go hunting.
But If I were you, I would also be encouraged by the fact that even on a windy day and with a dirty barrel, you're able to put bullets into the kill zone at 100 yards. That ain't all bad!
Good Luck when you go hunting.
11-24-2007, 04:43 PM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
Well we had the wind gusting here and since I hunt weather its blowing or not I often practice when it is.
The wind was very irregular and gusting 15 + miles per hour so I tried to wait for it to lay down or allow for it; it fooled me several times it moves the bullet about 4 inches so when I held off to compisate and it dropped to nothing I was way left and when it blew and I thought it was down I was way off to the right, but it is good to work with it because someday might have to make the shot that counts and it will most likly do it to me. Lee
The wind was very irregular and gusting 15 + miles per hour so I tried to wait for it to lay down or allow for it; it fooled me several times it moves the bullet about 4 inches so when I held off to compisate and it dropped to nothing I was way left and when it blew and I thought it was down I was way off to the right, but it is good to work with it because someday might have to make the shot that counts and it will most likly do it to me. Lee
11-24-2007, 05:12 PM
#10
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 141
RE: wind drift or too much powder????
Yep; good old kentucky windage. It's a fun game to play at the range but it's really hard to judge correctly all the time. 4" is very significant and very hard to judge. In no wind shooting horizonal spread generally means it wants more powder to the load; vertical stringing generally means the load is not being consumed entirely or compression of the load is inconsistant so use a little less powder to level it out.