Accuracy problem
07-22-2007, 04:00 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 418
Accuracy problem
I have to say that I'm very impressed with the wealth of knowledge and willingness to share it here. I'm disabled and have received a muzzleloader hunt in VA through Buckmaster's American Deer Foundation. I have a CVA Optima Pro that I've killed 2 deer with. Both deer were over 150 yds and I was shooting 130grains of 777 and a 240grain hornady sst (lock-n-load). Both deer ran a long way after the shot and left NO blood trail at all. Due to chronic back pain, I cannot spend alot of time at the range. I reduced my powder charge to 100grains and tried some 240 grain powerbelts. My first couple of shots were a little right of center, I made the windage adjustment and hit the bullseye. Not wanting to tempt fate, I put my gun up and let my son shoot his. Before leaving the range, I decided to shoot one more time. HUGE MISTAKE. My first shot was about 8"-10" high and 4" left of center. The next shot was low and left by the same distances in the first shot. I was shooting from a Bench Master rest, swabbing between every 3 shots or so with #13 bore cleaner, and checked my scopemounts several times. Discouraged, I went home.
This was on Friday and this afternoon (sunday) is the first time that I've been able to get out of bed due to chronic back pain. A friend from another site gave me some ideas on different bullets (Barnes Expander ML).
With my limited ability to "test" different loads, could some of you help me figure out how to get a decent load without killing myself. I know that you should shoot your own gun but I am concidering sending it to someone and have them build a load for it. Sorry for the long post, just want to explain the problem in full detail. Thanks in advance for your help.
God Bless,
This was on Friday and this afternoon (sunday) is the first time that I've been able to get out of bed due to chronic back pain. A friend from another site gave me some ideas on different bullets (Barnes Expander ML).
With my limited ability to "test" different loads, could some of you help me figure out how to get a decent load without killing myself. I know that you should shoot your own gun but I am concidering sending it to someone and have them build a load for it. Sorry for the long post, just want to explain the problem in full detail. Thanks in advance for your help.
God Bless,
07-22-2007, 04:34 PM
#2
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 426
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer, I have the regular Optima with the shorter barrel. My Optima likes 90g of 777 and 300g xtp hp. Here in Indiana my max distance needed is 100 yards or so. I haven't needed to try heavier powder loads. I have played around with the 250g xtp but my Optima sprayed them. The only consistant group out of 250g bullet for me was the shockwaves again with 90g of 777.
Good luck with your hunt and health.
Good luck with your hunt and health.
07-22-2007, 04:36 PM
#3
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Accuracy problem
245 grain powerbelt or a 295 powerbelt with 80-90 grains pyrodex RS. Also to tame down recoil, i would have a gun smith put on a limbsaver recoil pad. Had one put on my winchester and shooting a 385 grain great plains bullet, recoil feels like im shooting my 30-30.
07-22-2007, 05:09 PM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
While i can not promise you anything when it comes to your rifle and/or your shot placement, but I cantell you about a totally dependable load for me. I shoot a variety of guns and harvested deer with most of them. My absolute best and most trusted venison load is 100 grains T7-2f, a .451 - 260 grain Nosler Partition HP in an MMP HPH-24 sabot, 209 ignition.
Last year I shot a "toe head" buck @ 170 some yards with it from an Omega. The bullet entered the chest in front and exited out behind the right front leg - everything in the chest cavity was jello... the deer went went about 15 yards and dropped. PROBLEM - Nosler are EXPENSIVE.
I have started shooting a bullet that I think will be just as effective, less money to shoot, a Speer Gold Dot (bonded).452 HP. It is a great shooter and it will do the job inside the chest cavity - the deer will be in total shock. Here is a target from my White U-Mag shooting the Speer with 110 grains of T7.
Good luck in your search....
While i can not promise you anything when it comes to your rifle and/or your shot placement, but I cantell you about a totally dependable load for me. I shoot a variety of guns and harvested deer with most of them. My absolute best and most trusted venison load is 100 grains T7-2f, a .451 - 260 grain Nosler Partition HP in an MMP HPH-24 sabot, 209 ignition.
Last year I shot a "toe head" buck @ 170 some yards with it from an Omega. The bullet entered the chest in front and exited out behind the right front leg - everything in the chest cavity was jello... the deer went went about 15 yards and dropped. PROBLEM - Nosler are EXPENSIVE.
I have started shooting a bullet that I think will be just as effective, less money to shoot, a Speer Gold Dot (bonded).452 HP. It is a great shooter and it will do the job inside the chest cavity - the deer will be in total shock. Here is a target from my White U-Mag shooting the Speer with 110 grains of T7.
Good luck in your search....
07-22-2007, 06:18 PM
#5
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Accuracy problem
My first thought would be to try and match the load that was working for you so well in the past. 150 yard shooting is impressive so you know the rifle and you, have the ability. Since the deer did not drop in their tracks, you could blame the bullet or the shot placment. Examine both of those factors. Unfortunatly keep in mind, not all game animals fall over at the exact point of being shot.
If the shot placement was good, then we need to examine the bullet. If the shot placement was poor then you need to work on that and perhaps not take such long shots. A 240 grain SST. I will guess that you meant a 240 grain XTP which is a hollow based projectile. I will ask did the bullet get complete pass through? If you did not get pass through, you might want to change from a 240 grain XTP to something like a 250 grain SST. This would be flatter shooting at extreme ranges, and should be able to get better penetration. Or go to something like a 300 grain XTP and see how they shoot. They are larger and should put a little more wack down range on your deer.
If the 130 grain charge was too much recoil for you and your back, you need to back down to something more reasonable that you can handle. Perhaps start your testing at 90 grains of powder and work up from there. If you get good accuracy with 90 grains of powder, simply get a group you can live with and adjust your range of shots you would take, accordingly.
If you want to shoot the 245 grain powerbelts, try reducing your powder charge to 80-90 grains or perhaps your rifle is one of them that really likes the powder and you need to boost the powder charge more. Also be sure and twist the plastic buttons on and off a few times before loading. Even a dab of bore butter on the spike and then replace the button will help the rifle shed that button faster and normally increase your accuracy.
Unfortunatly your only option is range time and testing different bullets. I shoot a CVA Staghorn Magnum not an Optima. My go to load is a 245 grain Powerbelt with 90 grains of Pyrodex RS. That does not mean it will work for you...
I wish you the best of luck with your range testing. Also be careful shooting in the heat of the day as this can also effect the accuracy. Also good luck in your future hunt...
07-22-2007, 07:28 PM
#7
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Accuracy problem
Well at least you saw deer to shoot the Shockwaves/SST's at. Every day I hunted with them I never saw a thing. The day I went out in a snow storm with a flintlock and roundball, there it was....
Why the Shockwave did not pass through, who knows. I stopped trying to figure out ballistics a long time ago. You have a good powder charge. It should have. That is the problem when you do not get pass through and then the blood trails are not there, or hard to spot. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt you could say. It makes things tuff.
I really do not know what to suggest to you. Maybe reduce the distance you are willing to shoot. Yet you hit behind the shoulder which is a good hit. Unless of course it was too high. I do not shoot an Optima and there are lots of people on the forum that do. They will have much better suggestions for you. But good luck in your adventure. Sounds like a great hunt coming up for you.
Why the Shockwave did not pass through, who knows. I stopped trying to figure out ballistics a long time ago. You have a good powder charge. It should have. That is the problem when you do not get pass through and then the blood trails are not there, or hard to spot. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt you could say. It makes things tuff.
I really do not know what to suggest to you. Maybe reduce the distance you are willing to shoot. Yet you hit behind the shoulder which is a good hit. Unless of course it was too high. I do not shoot an Optima and there are lots of people on the forum that do. They will have much better suggestions for you. But good luck in your adventure. Sounds like a great hunt coming up for you.
07-22-2007, 10:07 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Accuracy problem
Bigtimer
Back on the thought, I do not think it is your rifle that is the problem, but more than likely a bullet or shot placement problem. Thinking of the bullet....
I'll share a little more of my beliefs, hydrostatic shock ( I use to call it hydraulic shock but someone along the way corrected me and called it "hydrostatic") I am a firm believer in this effect, while there are a lot of people - knowlegable to, that sat there is no such thing as "hydrostatic" shock. I ask a bullet that I shoot to accomplish three things90% of the time - Expand, pass through (hide, tissue, and/or bone), and create mass "hydrostatic shock" - this might sound terrible, but I do not want the animal to think there is something wrong I want them to know there is something wrong - "mass hydrostatic shock" does that.
I really do wish I had taken pictures of what I am talking about - I just assumed that all bullets were suppose to operated this way, but I should have known better, I quit using Hornady bullets in my 300 Winchester Mag, because when I would shoot an elk with them I would find the copper under the hide on the front side and the lead splattered around on the inside - the animal was dead but he took his time doing it. Other bullets I have shoot pass right through the animal hardly any expansion at all - again the animal is dead it is just a matter of when...
On the other hand - the Nosler 260's that I have been using for ML hunting, do pass through, do expand, and do cause massive hemorrhaging of the vital organs. An example would be the "toe head" I shot last year. The animal was quartering up to me, I had a very good chest shot and a marginalleft side body shot. I took the chest shot, I was aiming for the center of the chest under the neck, the bullet entered left of center and a little lower than expected (170+ yards). It made a real neat tight hole going in and a quarter sized hole going out behind the the right side shoulder - the bullet really did not hit any bone other than nicking a rib on the way out. When I rolled the deer over you could tell by the girgling sound there was a real problem inside. From the path of the bullet I felt I could have got part of the heart. When I got him opened up - everything in the chest cavity was jello - clotted blood - nothing was useable or identifiable. The bullet passing through the cavity in caused everything to blow up - clipping the heart started it and then it just became a chain reaction... the Noslers work.
Just my thoughts....
Back on the thought, I do not think it is your rifle that is the problem, but more than likely a bullet or shot placement problem. Thinking of the bullet....
I'll share a little more of my beliefs, hydrostatic shock ( I use to call it hydraulic shock but someone along the way corrected me and called it "hydrostatic") I am a firm believer in this effect, while there are a lot of people - knowlegable to, that sat there is no such thing as "hydrostatic" shock. I ask a bullet that I shoot to accomplish three things90% of the time - Expand, pass through (hide, tissue, and/or bone), and create mass "hydrostatic shock" - this might sound terrible, but I do not want the animal to think there is something wrong I want them to know there is something wrong - "mass hydrostatic shock" does that.
I really do wish I had taken pictures of what I am talking about - I just assumed that all bullets were suppose to operated this way, but I should have known better, I quit using Hornady bullets in my 300 Winchester Mag, because when I would shoot an elk with them I would find the copper under the hide on the front side and the lead splattered around on the inside - the animal was dead but he took his time doing it. Other bullets I have shoot pass right through the animal hardly any expansion at all - again the animal is dead it is just a matter of when...
On the other hand - the Nosler 260's that I have been using for ML hunting, do pass through, do expand, and do cause massive hemorrhaging of the vital organs. An example would be the "toe head" I shot last year. The animal was quartering up to me, I had a very good chest shot and a marginalleft side body shot. I took the chest shot, I was aiming for the center of the chest under the neck, the bullet entered left of center and a little lower than expected (170+ yards). It made a real neat tight hole going in and a quarter sized hole going out behind the the right side shoulder - the bullet really did not hit any bone other than nicking a rib on the way out. When I rolled the deer over you could tell by the girgling sound there was a real problem inside. From the path of the bullet I felt I could have got part of the heart. When I got him opened up - everything in the chest cavity was jello - clotted blood - nothing was useable or identifiable. The bullet passing through the cavity in caused everything to blow up - clipping the heart started it and then it just became a chain reaction... the Noslers work.
Just my thoughts....
07-23-2007, 06:37 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Accuracy problem
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
Bigtimer
Back on the thought, I do not think it is your rifle that is the problem, but more than likely a bullet or shot placement problem. Thinking of the bullet....
I'll share a little more of my beliefs, hydrostatic shock ( I use to call it hydraulic shock but someone along the way corrected me and called it "hydrostatic") I am a firm believer in this effect, while there are a lot of people - knowlegable to, that sat there is no such thing as "hydrostatic" shock. I ask a bullet that I shoot to accomplish three things90% of the time - Expand, pass through (hide, tissue, and/or bone), and create mass "hydrostatic shock" - this might sound terrible, but I do not want the animal to think there is something wrong I want them to know there is something wrong - "mass hydrostatic shock" does that.
I really do wish I had taken pictures of what I am talking about - I just assumed that all bullets were suppose to operated this way, but I should have known better, I quit using Hornady bullets in my 300 Winchester Mag, because when I would shoot an elk with them I would find the copper under the hide on the front side and the lead splattered around on the inside - the animal was dead but he took his time doing it. Other bullets I have shoot pass right through the animal hardly any expansion at all - again the animal is dead it is just a matter of when...
On the other hand - the Nosler 260's that I have been using for ML hunting, do pass through, do expand, and do cause massive hemorrhaging of the vital organs. An example would be the "toe head" I shot last year. The animal was quartering up to me, I had a very good chest shot and a marginalleft side body shot. I took the chest shot, I was aiming for the center of the chest under the neck, the bullet entered left of center and a little lower than expected (170+ yards). It made a real neat tight hole going in and a quarter sized hole going out behind the the right side shoulder - the bullet really did not hit any bone other than nicking a rib on the way out. When I rolled the deer over you could tell by the girgling sound there was a real problem inside. From the path of the bullet I felt I could have got part of the heart. When I got him opened up - everything in the chest cavity was jello - clotted blood - nothing was useable or identifiable. The bullet passing through the cavity in caused everything to blow up - clipping the heart started it and then it just became a chain reaction... the Noslers work.
Just my thoughts....
Bigtimer
Back on the thought, I do not think it is your rifle that is the problem, but more than likely a bullet or shot placement problem. Thinking of the bullet....
I'll share a little more of my beliefs, hydrostatic shock ( I use to call it hydraulic shock but someone along the way corrected me and called it "hydrostatic") I am a firm believer in this effect, while there are a lot of people - knowlegable to, that sat there is no such thing as "hydrostatic" shock. I ask a bullet that I shoot to accomplish three things90% of the time - Expand, pass through (hide, tissue, and/or bone), and create mass "hydrostatic shock" - this might sound terrible, but I do not want the animal to think there is something wrong I want them to know there is something wrong - "mass hydrostatic shock" does that.
I really do wish I had taken pictures of what I am talking about - I just assumed that all bullets were suppose to operated this way, but I should have known better, I quit using Hornady bullets in my 300 Winchester Mag, because when I would shoot an elk with them I would find the copper under the hide on the front side and the lead splattered around on the inside - the animal was dead but he took his time doing it. Other bullets I have shoot pass right through the animal hardly any expansion at all - again the animal is dead it is just a matter of when...
On the other hand - the Nosler 260's that I have been using for ML hunting, do pass through, do expand, and do cause massive hemorrhaging of the vital organs. An example would be the "toe head" I shot last year. The animal was quartering up to me, I had a very good chest shot and a marginalleft side body shot. I took the chest shot, I was aiming for the center of the chest under the neck, the bullet entered left of center and a little lower than expected (170+ yards). It made a real neat tight hole going in and a quarter sized hole going out behind the the right side shoulder - the bullet really did not hit any bone other than nicking a rib on the way out. When I rolled the deer over you could tell by the girgling sound there was a real problem inside. From the path of the bullet I felt I could have got part of the heart. When I got him opened up - everything in the chest cavity was jello - clotted blood - nothing was useable or identifiable. The bullet passing through the cavity in caused everything to blow up - clipping the heart started it and then it just became a chain reaction... the Noslers work.
Just my thoughts....
http://www.the-gleasons.com/noslerpartition300g.htm
I use the Nosler Partition Jacketed Pistol bullet 300g, SL uses the 45-70rifle bullet which is .458, my bullet is .452, doens't matter which one you use, they hold together, do not fragement and are one tough bullet that shoots thru a deer. If Nosler made a more aerodynamic bullet for MLers I would be using that, but they don't.
Chap Gleason