Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
07-19-2007, 05:52 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
ORIGINAL: sliceman
In addition to the advantages pointed out by Chap Gleason, the other advantages of the Savage MLII are:1) less cleaning, both while shooting and after shooting. Most shoot better without cleaning between shots. No need to clean after a day of hunting unless the bore got wet. 2) No need to shoot or unload after a day of hunting-just remove the primer. Just don't bring the weapon in from the cold so that condensation can occur. 3) No cloud of smoke to obscure the reaction of the game animal to the shot. 4) This gun is a tack-driver when you find the right load-MOA or less.
In addition to the advantages pointed out by Chap Gleason, the other advantages of the Savage MLII are:1) less cleaning, both while shooting and after shooting. Most shoot better without cleaning between shots. No need to clean after a day of hunting unless the bore got wet. 2) No need to shoot or unload after a day of hunting-just remove the primer. Just don't bring the weapon in from the cold so that condensation can occur. 3) No cloud of smoke to obscure the reaction of the game animal to the shot. 4) This gun is a tack-driver when you find the right load-MOA or less.
Chap Gleason
07-19-2007, 06:54 AM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
"you will quit CF rifle shooting with your 30-06 or .270 and use the Smokeless MLer. That is my intent this year for most of my rifle hunting and it goes from 1st Sat in Nov to 1st Sat in Jan."
I'm going to do the same thing, but with a .73-cal. flintlock Jaeger.
I'm going to do the same thing, but with a .73-cal. flintlock Jaeger.
07-19-2007, 10:09 AM
#13
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 41
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
The Savage ML10-II is a true inline muzzleloader and is not even similar to center fire rifles. The only difference with the Savage and other inline muzzleloaders is that the barrel and action are designed to take the higher pressures available in smokeless powder loads. Regular muzzleloaders to not have pressure tested barrels and actions and should not be used with smokeless powder. Every Savage is fired with a test load before it leaves the factory something which you do not find with any other production muzzleloader. These are certainly the safest production muzzleloading firearms made today.
With the Savage, there is nothing to prevent you using black powder or a black powder substitute that is legal in your state as long as your state allows inline muzzleloaders. Or, if your idea of manhood requires lots of smoke and the smell of burning sulphur, pour it down your Savage and go for it, just clean it appropriately after your testosterone rush!
The big advantage of the Savage is you don't have to use the messy corrosive black powder and substitutes in it. There is little or no fouling after a couple of shots and you don't have to swab the barrel repeatedly to maintain accuracy. You also have the choice of using loads that are more powerful than what is achievable with black powder or substitutes, and with less recoil. Black powder requires the use of 100 to 150 grains of powder for stronger loads, at least half of which is left unburned. That's like adding another 75 grains or so to the bullet weight which does nothing but increase recoil.
Enjoying better accuracy and more consistency than with the "smokepoles", not having to wait after shooting at a deer for the smoke to clear to see if you hit him or where he went, not having to spend so much time cleaning the gun after a single shot, not having having the barrel to corrode after only a few years because of the effects of the salts in the powder that didn't quite get cleaned out after that last shoot. These are just some of the reasons to use smokeless powder, the same reasons that shooters in the 1890s started using it in their cartridge guns. After all, it was the original "blackpowder substitute".
There are a number of other smokeless muzzleloading rifles available, but they are all guns made in relatively small custom shops. SMI (http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/) that makes conversions using NEF and other actions; Bad Bull which makes ultra expensive custom guns, Ultra-Light Arms (http://www.newultralight.com/HTML/mz.html) a small manufacturer of quality custom guns, or one of the conversions by Rick Bibby in Arkansas are just a few examples.
The Savage has the distinction of being the only production smokeless muzzleloader that is readily available in your local gun shop. Out of the box it is probably as accurate as any other muzzleloader selling for up to twice its price and with just a bit of work it is easily capable of sub-moa accuracy. Some customized Savages regularly shoot 1/2 moa with selected loads.
With the Savage, there is nothing to prevent you using black powder or a black powder substitute that is legal in your state as long as your state allows inline muzzleloaders. Or, if your idea of manhood requires lots of smoke and the smell of burning sulphur, pour it down your Savage and go for it, just clean it appropriately after your testosterone rush!
The big advantage of the Savage is you don't have to use the messy corrosive black powder and substitutes in it. There is little or no fouling after a couple of shots and you don't have to swab the barrel repeatedly to maintain accuracy. You also have the choice of using loads that are more powerful than what is achievable with black powder or substitutes, and with less recoil. Black powder requires the use of 100 to 150 grains of powder for stronger loads, at least half of which is left unburned. That's like adding another 75 grains or so to the bullet weight which does nothing but increase recoil.
Enjoying better accuracy and more consistency than with the "smokepoles", not having to wait after shooting at a deer for the smoke to clear to see if you hit him or where he went, not having to spend so much time cleaning the gun after a single shot, not having having the barrel to corrode after only a few years because of the effects of the salts in the powder that didn't quite get cleaned out after that last shoot. These are just some of the reasons to use smokeless powder, the same reasons that shooters in the 1890s started using it in their cartridge guns. After all, it was the original "blackpowder substitute".
There are a number of other smokeless muzzleloading rifles available, but they are all guns made in relatively small custom shops. SMI (http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/) that makes conversions using NEF and other actions; Bad Bull which makes ultra expensive custom guns, Ultra-Light Arms (http://www.newultralight.com/HTML/mz.html) a small manufacturer of quality custom guns, or one of the conversions by Rick Bibby in Arkansas are just a few examples.
The Savage has the distinction of being the only production smokeless muzzleloader that is readily available in your local gun shop. Out of the box it is probably as accurate as any other muzzleloader selling for up to twice its price and with just a bit of work it is easily capable of sub-moa accuracy. Some customized Savages regularly shoot 1/2 moa with selected loads.
07-19-2007, 11:37 AM
#14
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
If you dont like the smoke, smell or cleaning of a real muzzleloader, then muzzleloading just isnt for you. I personally have gotten bored with inlines and am buying sidelocks and flintlocks to keep me busy. I prefer a nice wood stock over black plastic. Althought i still love my inline, traditional rifles have a much sweeter spot in my heart. So far, ive found that all my rifles will keep up with my inline and give it a damn good run for its money.
07-19-2007, 11:49 AM
#15
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: River Ridge, LA (Suburb of New Orleans)
Posts: 10,918
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
Well chuck41, that's a nice testamonial for the Savage. But I'll never own one. Where's the fun of muzzleloading if you don't have a cloud of smoke and black smudges on your fingers and face? 
07-19-2007, 01:29 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
ORIGINAL: eldeguello
"you will quit CF rifle shooting with your 30-06 or .270 and use the Smokeless MLer. That is my intent this year for most of my rifle hunting and it goes from 1st Sat in Nov to 1st Sat in Jan."
I'm going to do the same thing, but with a .73-cal. flintlock Jaeger.
"you will quit CF rifle shooting with your 30-06 or .270 and use the Smokeless MLer. That is my intent this year for most of my rifle hunting and it goes from 1st Sat in Nov to 1st Sat in Jan."
I'm going to do the same thing, but with a .73-cal. flintlock Jaeger.
07-19-2007, 01:33 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
ORIGINAL: chuck41
The Savage ML10-II is a true inline muzzleloader and is not even similar to center fire rifles. The only difference with the Savage and other inline muzzleloaders is that the barrel and action are designed to take the higher pressures available in smokeless powder loads. Regular muzzleloaders to not have pressure tested barrels and actions and should not be used with smokeless powder. Every Savage is fired with a test load before it leaves the factory something which you do not find with any other production muzzleloader. These are certainly the safest production muzzleloading firearms made today.
With the Savage, there is nothing to prevent you using black powder or a black powder substitute that is legal in your state as long as your state allows inline muzzleloaders. Or, if your idea of manhood requires lots of smoke and the smell of burning sulphur, pour it down your Savage and go for it, just clean it appropriately after your testosterone rush!
The big advantage of the Savage is you don't have to use the messy corrosive black powder and substitutes in it. There is little or no fouling after a couple of shots and you don't have to swab the barrel repeatedly to maintain accuracy. You also have the choice of using loads that are more powerful than what is achievable with black powder or substitutes, and with less recoil. Black powder requires the use of 100 to 150 grains of powder for stronger loads, at least half of which is left unburned. That's like adding another 75 grains or so to the bullet weight which does nothing but increase recoil.
Enjoying better accuracy and more consistency than with the "smokepoles", not having to wait after shooting at a deer for the smoke to clear to see if you hit him or where he went, not having to spend so much time cleaning the gun after a single shot, not having having the barrel to corrode after only a few years because of the effects of the salts in the powder that didn't quite get cleaned out after that last shoot. These are just some of the reasons to use smokeless powder, the same reasons that shooters in the 1890s started using it in their cartridge guns. After all, it was the original "blackpowder substitute".
There are a number of other smokeless muzzleloading rifles available, but they are all guns made in relatively small custom shops. SMI (http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/) that makes conversions using NEF and other actions; Bad Bull which makes ultra expensive custom guns, Ultra-Light Arms (http://www.newultralight.com/HTML/mz.html) a small manufacturer of quality custom guns, or one of the conversions by Rick Bibby in Arkansas are just a few examples.
The Savage has the distinction of being the only production smokeless muzzleloader that is readily available in your local gun shop. Out of the box it is probably as accurate as any other muzzleloader selling for up to twice its price and with just a bit of work it is easily capable of sub-moa accuracy. Some customized Savages regularly shoot 1/2 moa with selected loads.
The Savage ML10-II is a true inline muzzleloader and is not even similar to center fire rifles. The only difference with the Savage and other inline muzzleloaders is that the barrel and action are designed to take the higher pressures available in smokeless powder loads. Regular muzzleloaders to not have pressure tested barrels and actions and should not be used with smokeless powder. Every Savage is fired with a test load before it leaves the factory something which you do not find with any other production muzzleloader. These are certainly the safest production muzzleloading firearms made today.
With the Savage, there is nothing to prevent you using black powder or a black powder substitute that is legal in your state as long as your state allows inline muzzleloaders. Or, if your idea of manhood requires lots of smoke and the smell of burning sulphur, pour it down your Savage and go for it, just clean it appropriately after your testosterone rush!
The big advantage of the Savage is you don't have to use the messy corrosive black powder and substitutes in it. There is little or no fouling after a couple of shots and you don't have to swab the barrel repeatedly to maintain accuracy. You also have the choice of using loads that are more powerful than what is achievable with black powder or substitutes, and with less recoil. Black powder requires the use of 100 to 150 grains of powder for stronger loads, at least half of which is left unburned. That's like adding another 75 grains or so to the bullet weight which does nothing but increase recoil.
Enjoying better accuracy and more consistency than with the "smokepoles", not having to wait after shooting at a deer for the smoke to clear to see if you hit him or where he went, not having to spend so much time cleaning the gun after a single shot, not having having the barrel to corrode after only a few years because of the effects of the salts in the powder that didn't quite get cleaned out after that last shoot. These are just some of the reasons to use smokeless powder, the same reasons that shooters in the 1890s started using it in their cartridge guns. After all, it was the original "blackpowder substitute".
There are a number of other smokeless muzzleloading rifles available, but they are all guns made in relatively small custom shops. SMI (http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/) that makes conversions using NEF and other actions; Bad Bull which makes ultra expensive custom guns, Ultra-Light Arms (http://www.newultralight.com/HTML/mz.html) a small manufacturer of quality custom guns, or one of the conversions by Rick Bibby in Arkansas are just a few examples.
The Savage has the distinction of being the only production smokeless muzzleloader that is readily available in your local gun shop. Out of the box it is probably as accurate as any other muzzleloader selling for up to twice its price and with just a bit of work it is easily capable of sub-moa accuracy. Some customized Savages regularly shoot 1/2 moa with selected loads.
07-19-2007, 02:36 PM
#19
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
I personally do not see the Savage Smokeless muzzleloader a question of what is or is not right. No one is forcing any of us to purchase their brand of muzzleloaders. We purchase and use what we want for our own personal reasons. Just as someone likes the smokeless features of the Savage, and the flatter shooting it can provide, another might like a rifle like the White, that throws a huge conical bullet down range with excellent accuracy. Or some like Thompson Center but would not own a BPI rifle. Others own BPI rifles and swear by them. That's all fine. Purchase and use what you want as long as you support the entire sport, keep it and all aspects of it safe from being intruded on by those that dislike hunting or shooting sports all together for what ever reason they have.
07-19-2007, 10:30 PM
#20
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 41
RE: Some questions from the other end of the spectrum
ORIGINAL: frontier gander
If you dont like the smoke, smell or cleaning of a real muzzleloader, then muzzleloading just isnt for you. I personally have gotten bored with inlines and am buying sidelocks and flintlocks to keep me busy. I prefer a nice wood stock over black plastic. Althought i still love my inline, traditional rifles have a much sweeter spot in my heart. So far, ive found that all my rifles will keep up with my inline and give it a damn good run for its money.
If you dont like the smoke, smell or cleaning of a real muzzleloader, then muzzleloading just isnt for you. I personally have gotten bored with inlines and am buying sidelocks and flintlocks to keep me busy. I prefer a nice wood stock over black plastic. Althought i still love my inline, traditional rifles have a much sweeter spot in my heart. So far, ive found that all my rifles will keep up with my inline and give it a damn good run for its money.
I use my muzzleloader for hunting. A lot of folks like to go to primitive camps, turkey shoots, or just go to the range and blow smoke. Personally, I like to hunt. If you live in a state that forbids the use of smokeless powder for hunting, then traditional or inline black powder muzzleloaders are the way to go depending on the local regulations.
After an experience of not knowing which direction a possibly injured deer went after shooting him with a smokepole last season, I will not do that again. I have too much respect for the game to risk the loss and waste because of using something with that unnecessary limitation just for the "sport". I won't take a shot unless I am absolutely sure of it and I certainly am not going to do anything that I know will substantually increase the liklihood of injuring an animal that is just going to crawl off somewhere to die and be wasted.
Everyone has their own thing. Frontier gander obviously likes the smell and mess of black powder and the joy hearing the "Snap - - - Whoof" of a black powder gun belching fire and that's cool with me. If you want to not know whether the cookie you are nibbling on is an Oreo or a Vanilla Creme with BP crud on it that's cool too. It just ain't my idea of fun.
However, what we were discussing here was a muzzleloader. That is defined as a firearm that loads the propellent and bullet through the muzzle. It really has nothing to do with the chemical composition of the propellant. If what you really mean is "primitive weapon" then perhaps you should consider restricting your use to something that is truly "primitive" like is a long bow (none of those fancy recurves or compounds), a hatchet, a spear, a rock or some snares made of braided hair. The choice is up to you.
As for me, I will use my Savage and happily stuff the bullet down the muzzle and call it a "muzzleloader" even though it has a telescopic sight and I use smokeless powder in it. I will drive my pickup to the woods and won't bother to keep horses for the trip. I will even ride my four wheeler to my deer stand instead of hiking the three miles. I will sleep in my trailer and use the heater when its cold and the A/C when its hot and not shiver in an "authentic" canvas tent so I can fit somebody's mold. I don't think any of it makes me any less of a man, but you are welcome to your own opinion.