Semisane

After finding that data onthe upper and lower velocities for expansion and performance ofHornady XTPs, I got to wondering about the 300 grain Speer Gold Dots and 300 grain Sierra Sports Masters that I have been working with.

There's nothing on either of their web sites. I sent an e-mail query to Speer from their web site - no response yet.

The Sierra site had atoll free phone number for their group of six ballistics technicians, so I called them. Here's how it went.

- - - - - - - - - - -

ME: "I'm shooting Sierra number 8830, 45 caliber 300 grain jacketed soft point Sports Master bullets from a muzzle loader, using a sabot. Can you tell me the upper and lower velocity limits for reliable expansion andbullet integrity for this bullet?"

TECHNICIAN: "Yes I can, but it would be meaningless for your purposes. The figures we have are based on the bullet's use in pistols, where the riflingis engravingthe jacket of the bullet, and that has an impact on how the bullet performs on game. It's a very tough bullet to start with. When you put it in a sabot where it's not beingengraved by the rifling, its even tougher. I've shot it from a muzzleloader at 2200 fps and got very little expansion."

ME: "I'm shooting it at 1700 fps at the muzzle."

TECHNICIAN: "Then you'd better shoot for the sholder and get some bone, because you're not going to get any expansion at all. It's a really though bullet."

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Well, I guess I won't be using the Sierra for my whitetail hunts. Probably be real good for big hogs, or punching through a coyote without damaging the hide.

If I get anything back from Speer, I'll let you guys know.

cayugad

That's interesting. Also one aspect I never considered when I think in terms of bullets. The rifling changes the expansion properties of the projectile. Most interesting. It would be interesting to get some ballistics gel and test his theory, but I heard that stuff is expensive.

HEAD0001

It sounds like they told you the truth. Is the bullet you mention a .452 or a .458. Even if it is a .458, I wonder what rifle they designed it for-at 2200fps+? That sounds a bit fast for me. Even in the 45-70. Ifit is a .452 then I can not imagine what they designed it for. I wonder what pistol would shoot a 300 grain pill at 2200 fps. I guess it would have to be the 454 Casull or the 460 S&W.

I believe the Gold Dot is a pistol bullet?? So it should be a .452. I think the Gold Dot was designed for heavy pistol loads, which would be about 1700 fps.

Good post, Tom.

cayugad

http://www.myscienceproject.org/gelatin.html


This should get the evil minds working...

Semisane

The bullet in question is .4515 diameter. I'm with you HEAD0001, can't figure out what it's designed for. Maybe .45 Colt in a rifle or a punch through, bone busting pistol bullet for bear.

Keep in mind that the guy said the bullet behaves differently when engraved by rifling. Maybe it expands OK at a much lower velocity when engraved.

oldrookie

I believe sabotloader had indicated in another thread that the speer .45 was colt. I believe its .451. the reason I say that is I accidentally purchased .45 noslers in colt instead of partitions.

Semisane

Hi again oldrookie. In their Gold Dot series, Speer identifies their 250 grain bullet as a 45 Colt bullet and their 300 grainer as a 454 Casul bullet.

They also make a "UniCore Soft Point" in 300 grain which they identify as a45 Colt hunting bullet, and a 225 and 260 grain Jacketed Soft Point which they identify as general purpose bullets.

Problem is, they (and the other manufacturers)use all of those descriptive terms rather than give us minimum impact velocities for reliable expansionand maximum velocities at which break-up would likely occur.

Then, there's this whole issue of differences in performance based on engraving / non-engraving bytherifling.I guess that's why we rely so much on hands-on field reports from fellow hunters.

sabotloader

Semisane

Here is what I might indicate to you. The velocities you are going to find listed are for the weapon the bullet was intended to be shot from. Very few velocities are computed using ML's as the test gun.

For years I have been shooting the 250/260/300 grain bullets at a great velocity than published for a 45 pistol. That is whyI conducted so many tests trying to find the bullet that would hold together @ the velocities that I wanted to shoot it at.

So far the Noslers, the Gold Dots (not the unicore), and for some reason the Hornady 200 grain XTP all have passed the torture test and all have VERY good penetraion and expansion. I use to shoot Sierra's a long time agao because I am a Sierra fan, but I could not get the performance I thougt I wanted - so again back to Nosler Partitions - until I started experimenting with the Gold Dots - They work. The Speer plant is just south of me here in Lewiston, ID - ther was a blurb in the local paper the other day - They absolutely can not keep up with the demand for Gold Dots both for law enforcement and hunters...

Asi was telling Cayugad I have know idea why the Hornady 10mm 200 grain XTP works so well. I am way over shooting it, I am shooting it at 2100 fps and it is rated for somewhere around 1200 fps. I can not strip it and it is so accurate I am shooting ground squirrels with it. Lee has shot deer and pigs with it and it has worked great for him, by all of his reports.

Just some thoughts....

Semisane

sabotloader, I know you've probably covered this already, but, what sabot do you use with the 10mm?

sabotloader

Semisane

I use the MMP HPH 40/50 Blue sabot. If you get some do not be to worried about the bullet not fitting into the bottom of the sabot snugly. As you push the load down the bullet will settle into the bottom and the sabot will form fit around the bullet and to your barrel... it is one of Del's new inventions so that the sabot will fit a wider variety of barrels (bore diameters)