Red Lion

The answer is a resounding yes. I am sureyou are refering to the Savage 10ML-II, the best ML out. Smokeless versus BP substitute makes no difference on whether something is an ML or not.

yeoman

Cayugad -

You were doing great 'till you brought the Idaho thing in. After saying much about each to his own, you then say:

Shouldn'tlobbying their representatives be to each his own as well?I confess to a bit of resentment toward my game department because I have felt cheated by others out of time in the woods that was very special to me. Not that compounds and crossbows have taken time away from me in the woods, but it is not as special as it once was. At what point does the sheer number of people in the woods reduce the quality of the experience beyond what "old timers" will tolerate.

In many areas we are already there. The numbers of licensed hunters has been in decline for over 30 years. You hear all kinds of explanations but I believe the reason is not easy to "see". It's in the tone in a father's voice as he encourages his children to take part in the hunt. Not what is being said, but how it is being said. It's in the conversation the son or daughter overhears between dad and a fellow hunter. It's subtle, but the message is clear to a child. " My dad would love me to do these things with him, but he's ok with it if I decide to go another way. Dad's afraid of something. I don't know what it is, but I sense it in his voice." What dad's fear, is that they will turn their children into little copies of themselves, so enamoured with the woods and it's creatures that most everything "normal" folks worry about is brushed aside to spend more time out there. But that in doing so, making little copies of themselves, they risk setting their children up for broken hearts, as the woods they hunt turn to pavement or people who lobby their representatives win the day, in the future,and deer populations are held in check by birth control. This father to son/daughter thing is nothing original. It'ssocial evolution. It will continue, and changes to Idaho's MZ regs. will either serve to speed it up or slow it down, nothing more.

And if a guy wants to lobby his representatives to change the regs. to preserve or enhance what he sees as a better hunting experience, I'm not inclined to say he's "cheating" others. I believe we do share a common ground. It's just that some believe "uniting all hunters" (my quotes) in a common bond will better preserve the hunting heritage while others question whether a woods full of hunters is a heritage worth preserving.

The common ground is we all love to hunt, and, what we fail to "see" is that, we're all afraid.

frontier gander

Well, in that case the cva electra is a muzzleloader too. They just want to test the field and see if it sells or not and theres nothing wrong with that at all. For all we know, this could actually take off if it turns out to be a good product. Im not into that smokeless muzzleloader, i feel that if you need to shoot smokeless, you may as well buy a centerfire, or better yet, if you still want that one shot challenge, a single shot. As for the savage being the best ml out there, Theres no such thing. Everyone is bound to like and dislike something on every muzzleloader. Even on my inline i wish they would have put 2 ramrod thimbles rather than one. But you cant always have everything, just have to pick what suits your needs the closest.

I'd give the electra a try if i ever had the chance to shoot one. I dont care if it has an electronic cap or not, Its something different i like taking the other road.

cayugad

yeoman - I have nothing against anyone trying to support their point of view through representatives. But from what I gathered from many of the posts on the Idaho topic was, this whole thing was a bit of a surprise to many of the muzzleloader hunters. Of course, other then those that attended the meetings and voiced their opinion. I am a firm believer that anytime you take a privilage away from someone, you really need to make every possible effort that those being effected have or had a chance to voice their opinion and be involved in the process. This new Idaho change seemed to be more of an after the fact kind of move. And this seems more apparent at the current unrest of the issue.

The problem with polictical pressure groups is,not everyone can or willattend meetings due to other committments. We see this with the animal right activitist a great deal. Someone has a problem with animals. They ask for help to rid them. The PETA people or other such groupsdecide animals have more rights then the general public, they swarm meetings, lobby representative, and through advertizing, spend millions of dollars to get others to see their way. Then try and change laws to express their point of view. What was the other side doing at this time? That is my question. I (again from reading posts) see this happening in the muzzleloader problem with Idaho.

Was this Idaho change ever put as a referendum to the public? Was the public even made aware that this was taking place? Or at least to the hunting population on a whole? If Idaho is computerized like Wisconsin, this would have been simple to send out a survey before the changes were made, to everyone that had a muzzleloading license. They could have gotten a lot of input that way of ALL hunter's opinions, and not suddenly had this whole issue hang in the air. From some of the immediate outrage displayedin responces I read, I tend to think this change was somehow slipped over on the general hunting population. How that happened I have no idea.

Never ever believe that I do not support someone being able to talk to their representatives, voice their opinion, and perhaps get laws changed. That is something I do, and I support. My point was, people in Idaho that had purchased and used inline weapons, and were active in the past hunting season were suddenly told it did not exhist anymore. What do you really think caused this move to happen? At the same time a different faction, those being more traditional in beliefs were handed the gravy dish.

That is what I am against. If the State of Idaho on a whole voted to go tradtional, then that is a good thing. No complaints. But from the uproar that is not the case. I personally have no say in the matter other then perhaps a future hunter wanting to come to the State and spend my hunting dollars.

Flatland Hunter

roundball... Where do you get "how they did it back in the day" out of that... that is what I am talking about. Just because someone says they want more of a challenge does not mean he is going to do it "how they did it back in the day".

Who said anything about anger? I am incredulous at your assumptions... once again putting on an arrogant display of what you are certain people are thinking...

As Cayugad eloquently said in his post... "What Huntaway and Roundball perceive as a challenge, others might perceive differently." You just made an automatic assumption that it lined up with your paradigm of how it is supposed to be done.

It all boils down to this... no matter what you hunt with you have to work to put yourself into the position where you can cleanly harvest an animal. That goes for whatever you are hunting with...

Flatland Hunter

The statements that some trad hunters make sound an awful lot like Zumbo's comments about AR's... and come out sounding just as uninformed.

cascadedad

roundball

Well, now that we are talking about Idaho.... I have asked the question a couple times in different threads, where is the datathat shows what impact the Idaho changes will have on Mule Deer harvest numbers. So far, unless I have missed something, no one has been able to produce it. If you can, I would certainly appreciate it.


These numbers have been referenced before. I don't know the accuracy, but I imagine they are at least close.
http://www.muledeernet.org/statusidaho.htm

From 2005,
Total Deer Hunters (Rifle) 138,100
Total Deer Hunters (ML) 2,650

Let's assume that half the MLers hunted with inline and half with traditional.

The traditionalistssay, "Well, the modern ML hunters can ALWAYS hunt the regular rifle season."

OK, so now the statistics are..............

Total Deer Hunters (Rifle & Modern ML) 139,425
Total Deer Hunters (Traditional ML only)1,325

I think it is safe to say,"Somebody wants the woods to themselves."

This is what gives me heartburn about the whole situation. Why can't you share the woods with me? Maybe you can further discriminate against some of the traditional hunters if they don't wear a loin-cloth. That will likely cut out another 6-800.

yeoman

Cayugad - this is what I would have expected based on my reading of your opinions and the way you express them.

quote:

they feel the need to pressure the State representatives to change the laws to fit their needs, cheating others out of a time in the woods that might have been very special to them

I had trouble reconciling this with what I expected and you've now clarified.

You said cheating others. Did you mean "in line hunters allowed their season to be taken away"? At least, if Idaho's normal method of presenting regulations was followed.

I think it's a shame we have to be on constant look out for fear of losing what we've come to enjoy, but that's the way it is. There are many great things about the way our system works. As hunters, it seems every time we have to defend what we enjoy and have enjoyed for thousands of years, we lose a little in the battle.

Too often, we take it all for granted.

Red Lion

Fair enough on your take. I really meantthat the savage is the most versatile ML in being able to shoot smokeless or BP substitute,is safer in handling significantpsi, between 100,000-120,000 psi versus other ML's, and gives the best performance, such as getting loads reaching up to 2,900fps and still having moa out past 200 yards formost shooters.
I can appreciate that individualshave individual preferances, so I am cool with anyone shooting whatever ML they prefer.

sabotloader

Red Lion

And NOT to cause a problem with ANYONE, if I were going to shoot a Savage smokeless and get 2900+fps - I probably would just go to a Ruger #1 and even be safer... but as you say and I firmly believe it...