Pglasgow

It seems that they are no longer recommending that quantity of IMR 3031 any longer. This because the maximum recommended charge of IMR 3031 only yields 2192 MV, so .5 grains less would have to be less. Also, I notice the fastest handload for 150 grain bullet is 2390 fps. So I guess it is fair to say that factory ammunition is typically hotter than handloads are if one is buying 30-30 ammunition.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

It also occurs to me. Since 125 yardsshould be considered a routine for bows, it would seem thatit could be argued that flintlock would be plenty primitive to participate in bow season

dmurphy317

The loads on that website are quite a bit conservative compared to the manuals I have, some of which are only a few years old. Be that as it may, my load works well and shows no signs of over pressure.

As for the 125 yard shots being routine, notice I said for some shooters, not all and only when conditions are right. Most bow hunters I know limit their shots to a max of 70 to 90 yards depending on the person and their ability. I don't shoot bow as much as they do so I usually don't shoot over about 40 to 50 yards, and it's been a while since I did that due to some shoulder problems over the last few years.

Pglasgow

This is where I disagree. I think the state needs to define what they want to be be legal for their muzzleloader season. I think the argument, "it loads from the muzzle", can be too simplistic for a given state and its objectives. Argueing the semantics of what the season is calledjust seemspointless to me.

Is herd control a major problem in your state? Is it not possible to harvest the necessary number of animals just in rifle season? Don't you guys draw for tags? Isn't there enough demand for tags to ensure the harvest? Sure thereare alot states which have no restrictions on muzzleloaders. Take Oklahoma for example. They can't seem to meet harvest objectives and one, for the most part, must hunt private land there isn't a whole lot of public land, at least not comparable to the west.Thats Oklahoma, not Idaho. Each state needs to seek its own fit and if the season has drifted beyond the states original intent or if the state thinks that changes are needed to maximize access, then it needs to be able to implement the changes with the cooperation and participation of its citizens.

I'm not advocatingmaking anyor allmuzzleloading seasonsflinter/roundball seasons. I'm hunting with an inline, conicals, and sabots in whatever season they are legal for hunting. Not that I don't or wouldn't hunt with a traditional rifle, I have done most of my ML hunting with one. I recognize the benefits inlines, conicals, and sabots provide. That's why I went to the trouble and expenseof buying them. The benefits are obvious to me at the range, clearly obvious.

dmurphy317

My comments/opinions were not meant to be about any specific state and I agree that each state, with input from the hunting population and citizens, should set the standards for their own rules. I was just pointing out that in states that have a muzzleloading season, the definitions typically are more open to newer designs than those who use the term primitive. Likewise states like Miss. that have a black powder seasonsometimes include BP cartridge guns. Each term does have different meanings in and of themselves.

Here in NM they have gone almost exclusively to a draw format for all tags. Each year they have the option of increasing or decreasing the number of tags available for each unit and each hunt based on the harvest goals in each area. To me, having lived and hunted mostly in the east, the system seems very complicated and overbearing compared to what I'm use to. But that is the way it is set up and I do my best to work within the system and hopefully get drawn.

One thing I disagree with you on, to some degree, is the benefit of an inline vs a sidelock,etc. With projectiles there are certain advantages/differences in performance and sighting devices such as scopes offer certain advantages over simple sights. But in the case of different action designs there is no significant advantage when equiped with the same or similar sights and loads. Case in point, My Lyman GPH with a peep sight shoots a tighter group and has at least as good a range as my scoped Magbolt when shooting the same bullet combo. I would give the GPH the advantage within the 150 to 200 yard range they both shoot well at. In that case, the benefits of an inline are not that obvious to me.

sabotloader

FG

I agree with you, I would and do prefer to hunt with a ML any day, in fact i use a ML all year now - hardly ever get a centerfire out.

But, for me I would also tell you as long as I am hunting for sport the ML would be the gun of choice, but I were hunting to feed the family and given the choice of those two guns- my trusty old 94 - 30-30 would be the choice. As far as shooting 200 yards with either of them - if they were equipped the same the 30-30 has less drop,more velocity, less wind defecltion, and about equal energy out that far, and if I needed to actually shoot that far - again in a needed meat situation and equipped the same it would be the 30-30 I wouldchoose. I guess I am really getting old but a 200 yard shot with either one of them you had better be on the top of your game.

Pglasgow

This is just a matter of supply and demand. We found out in Colorado that acceptable Mule deer hunt quality could stand up to over-the-counter access to license. A draw had to be implemented or hunt quality was going to suffer significantly.

The GPH does implement two major improvements. First, it is using a a conical which benefits from a twist rate appropriate for it. Its just like an inline barrel in that regard, don't you agree? Maybe if you would put a 1:60 twist on the stock and try the 460 again with some buckhorn sights and you will get a sense that the GPH is a traditional mimicking an inline bore-wise and perhaps get a sense of what the differencebetween your peep-sighted GPH and a genuinely replicated frontier rifle actually is. Geniune in that it gives similar performance.

Second, you are shooting a peep sight, which eliminates a minimum of half the pointing error of abuckhorn sight.

Yes, its performance is comparable to the Magbolt, though I personally would consider the GPH barrel superior in quality and better suited forhigher precisionshooting. Particularly in the context of weight and barrel length. So in a sense, you have a "traditional" barrel which shares more attributes with high quality inline (like a white) than your Magbolt does. Not exactly apples and oranges and it exacerbates the comparison in much the same way a super-hot unallowed 30-30 load vs. a relatively weak MLloadexacerbates the comparison of a 30-30 and a ML.

If there were no obvious improvements, why would people avoid traditional rifles with traditional sights and roundball twist? Why do they want to avoid using roundball? Why do they want to avoid flintlock or percussion cap ignition systems? When they are asked to used these kinds of muzzlerloaaders in the "primitive" hunt, why do they storm the capitol and threaten the offices of appointed officials? The answer is clear to me. They want the improvements of the inline rifles. They don't want their hands tied behind their backs and be limited with a weapon which is as primitive as a genuinely replicated frontier rifle. While I wouldn'tmarch onthe capitolto keep inlines in MLseason, nor would I personally lobby to get them out of ML season, I wouldgladly confess that my motivations forbuyingan inline with 209 ignition was to improve reliability of ignition and to improveprecision and accuracy withprojectiles which are superior to PRB.

Again, I suppose this could go on forever, the "argument" that there is no difference or technological advantage in the choices of sighting systems, twist rates, projectiles, and ignition types. But as I said earlier, arguing they don't make any difference justcomes off as being argumentative.

Pglasgow

I dug out my old manual. Dang this thing is old, older than me, c. 1959. It is a speer manual. The max load for 150 bullet and 3031 is 34 grains and yields MV of 2407. I notice that 30 grains yields 2162 MV which is right in line with Hodgdon's website with 30.5 grains yielding 2192 MV.

My Speer Manual has no information on pressures but the Hodgdon website has them listed for starting loads and maximum loads.28.7 grains yields 28700 cup, 30.5 grains 36000 cup. There is an increase in pressure of 25.4% for an increase in muzzle energy of 10.50%.

This, the way it is with smokeless. Much higher increases in pressure than increases in muzzle energy. So how high will the pressure be with the 34 grain load in the Speer Manual?

First there is an increase of 20.5% in muzzle energy. Assuming perfect efficiencies of the breech pressure there would be a corresponding increase in the pressures lifting pressures from 36000 cupto 43,200 cup. BUT THIS CAN'T BE CORRECT, there isn't perfect efficiency. Given we know a unit increase in muzzle energy results in a 2.5 times increase in pressure (between 28.7 and 30.5 grains 3031), using this relationship will bring us closer to an accurate estimate of pressure.

Increase in pressure= 2.5 x Increase in muzzle energy = 51.5%

Pressure 34 grains = 1.515*36000 cup= 54,500 cup

OK, now this isn't a measurement, and perhaps its too high.If it is we still know its between 43200 and 54,500. Obviously it approachesmagnum pressure and it should be clear that the design of the cartridge falls short of limiting pressures at the higher velocities.Even so,the context as to whether its safe depends entirely onthe rifle the load is used in. The same manual recommends pressures below 40,000 for lever action rifles.

Regarding factory ammo, I have never found 30-30 ammo with MV near 2400 fps. Not saying it isn't made. Just saying that it involves some context in that this kind of loading isn't appropriate for many 30-30 rifles. I would think most manufactures load their 30-30 ammo just I have found it, in the neighborhood of 2100 MV so that they are not overloaded for any rifle.

dmurphy317

Like you said, this could go on forever and never prove anything. I did go look up the load in the manual (Lee 1st edition) and the max load listed with 3031 and a 150gr bullet is 35.5gr with a max pressure of 37,700 CUP. My load is 35gr. The manual shows loadings all the way up to 42,000 CUP. This just goes to illustrate that each barrel, including test barrels, is different and the results will be different than what someone else used. Thats the nature of things and thats why one should consult several sources and then work up slowly while looking for pressure signs.

BTW I do have the GPR barrel and it shoots PRB very well also. I'm still looking for the most accurate load but it shows very good promise and should be able to shoot under 2" at 100 when fine tuned. I do use traditional sights on that barrel.

sabotloader

Pglasgow

I have not been able to follow along comepletly on this thread.. just noticed your last statement...

I have a factory box of ammo here the muzzle velocity is listed as 2400 fps for 160 grain bullett and 2200 fps for 170 grain FP's.. Hornady lists their 150 grain RN @ 2390...

The Sierra list my load (the load that I have been using forever) 34.8 grains IMR 4064 @ 2250...

The new factory loads with the newer blocked powder has stepped that up and kept the cup the down..

Shooting a 30-30 with a 160 grainspire point (lever evolution) @ 2400 fps second is pretty handy for a 30-30, even the 170 @ 2200 is no slouch...

But I really did like my 2250 fps 150 grain load it was really accurate for
me.

Here is the published info on the "evolution"





30-30 160 gr. Evolution
[align=right]82730[/align]





Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)

Muzzle
100 yd
200 yd
300 yd
400 yd
500 yd

2400/2046
2150/1643
1916/1304
1699/1025







Trajectory (inches)

Muzzle
100 yd
200 yd
300 yd
400 yd
500 yd

-1.7
3.0
0.2
-12.1

Pglasgow

Sabotloader,

I don't know what your point is. I can honestly say I have never walked into my local walmart and bought 30-30 ammo with a MV of 2390 fps.That last I bought, for my nephew who lives in Tennessee, and who I helped with sighting, was around 2100 fps. In one breath loads with these velocities (max loads) need to worked up to . . . then in other breath you just buy'em at your local walmart and use them in any 30-30, even while the guy buying the ammo can't possibly work up to that load. That's beside the point anyway.

Fact is, you selected an inordinately large BC for the 30-30 bullet and compared it too a load inferior to the one you ACTUALLY use in order to misdirect and sophistically argue that a muzzleloader couldn't exceed the performance of a 30-30. I merely pointed that out. Now you and dave, and I'm quite fond of you both, want to pick at this and that and find exceptions and so on. Dave seeming to exagerrate Bow,PRB, and percussion cap technology, while you exagerate typical 30-30 performance and under describe inline/sabot performance. Good grief.