200 + yards ???
12-10-2002, 03:40 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rochester Indiana USA
Posts: 71
200 + yards ???
I want,
1) spend up to $300 (gun only)
2) hit tight group at 200 yards
3) easy cleaning
4) least recoil
5) versital, sabots, round ball, smokeless, ect...
Yes, I'm going to be new to ML. I am looking now for the after xmas sales. I will be hunting mainly whitetail, but if someone ask me to go elk hunting?
I have been reading these articles for about 4 weeks now. This is where I have come up with what is important to me.
Hopfully this is enough to get the ball rolling.
Your input will be appreciated.
Thanks
1) spend up to $300 (gun only)
2) hit tight group at 200 yards
3) easy cleaning
4) least recoil
5) versital, sabots, round ball, smokeless, ect...
Yes, I'm going to be new to ML. I am looking now for the after xmas sales. I will be hunting mainly whitetail, but if someone ask me to go elk hunting?
I have been reading these articles for about 4 weeks now. This is where I have come up with what is important to me.
Hopfully this is enough to get the ball rolling.
Your input will be appreciated.
Thanks
12-10-2002, 06:09 PM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: jackson new jersey
Posts: 301
RE: 200 + yards ???
200yds.? thats asking a little much. Round balls shoot better out of a barrel with a slower twist. Sabots like a faster twist. I don't see you getting a gun that can do both efficiently with one barrel.
12-10-2002, 06:18 PM
#4
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rochester Indiana USA
Posts: 71
RE: 200 + yards ???
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I think you are dreaming, if you really think you are going to be regularly successful at 200 yard shots. Knight and T/C has some nice rifles.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Are you saying that a 200 yard shot is ify???
I think you are dreaming, if you really think you are going to be regularly successful at 200 yard shots. Knight and T/C has some nice rifles.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Are you saying that a 200 yard shot is ify???
12-10-2002, 06:23 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rochester Indiana USA
Posts: 71
RE: 200 + yards ???
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
200yds.? thats asking a little much. Round balls shoot better out of a barrel with a slower twist. Sabots like a faster twist. I don't see you getting a gun that can do both efficiently with one barrel.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Would you tell me which gives greater distance and accuracy, sabot or round ball??
200yds.? thats asking a little much. Round balls shoot better out of a barrel with a slower twist. Sabots like a faster twist. I don't see you getting a gun that can do both efficiently with one barrel.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Would you tell me which gives greater distance and accuracy, sabot or round ball??
12-10-2002, 06:45 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 470
RE: 200 + yards ???
JagDog, I don't mean to be a smartypants, but you are asking way too much of any muzzleloader! My guess is that you haven't shot one yet. It would be nice if you could find someone who could give you a lesson before you buy a new gun. If you were here in Iowa, I would love to get you to the range. You are asking for performance like I would expect from a .270 and it's not gonna happen. Good luck! Jim
12-10-2002, 09:52 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
RE: 200 + yards ???
The gun you're looking for doesn't exist, at least not any I've ever heard of. The problem lies in that you're asking so much out of a gun with many limitations.
To address your list point-for-point:
1) There are certainly good muzzleloaders out there for less than $300. I bought my Traditions Buckhunter Pro nickle plated for $150 on clearance at Walmart. It's a good gun, but it only likes shooting heavy conicals (460 grain flatpoints at about 1300-1400fps), which means that it's at best a 100 yard gun. After 100 yards the steep trajectory makes it more of an indirect fire weapon (read mortar) than a rifle. If you want a premium quality gun with all the accessories you'll need to shoot it, you're probably going to far exceed your spending limit.
2) I quess that depends on your definition of a tight group. If you're expecting benchrest rifle accuracy out of any muzzleloader you're probably dreaming. That being said, most modern quality ML's will shoot very good groups if fed a bullet/load combo that is appropriate for the rifle and that the rifle likes (see response to question 5).
3) This one's more realistic. ML's have a well deserved reputation for being dirty shooting guns, but just because they shoot dirty doesn't mean they're particularly hard to clean. Actual fouling depends on the powder used, but black powder and it's subs usually clean up very quickly in just hot soapy water. If there is lead or plastic fouling in the bore it is cleaned just like it's centerfire cousins. The hardest thing I've found to clean is the 209 primer fouling blown back into the bolt on my DISC, but it just needs a good nitro solvent just like a smokeless CF gun.
4) If you're looking for a ML that will be effective on deer, particularly past 100 yards, you're going to have to deal with the inevitable consequence of propelling a heavy enough chunk of metal at high enough velocities to humanely harvest the animal in question. Even shooting a fairly light .490 roundball with a mild charge of 70 grains you're going to get noticable (but not necessarily uncomfortable) recoil, but you're looking at a 75-100 yard gun with that load at best. If you want to reach out farther it means loading heavier, ballistically superior, bullets with a lot more powder to get the velocity up. This comes with the price of very stiff recoil.
5) Versatal, yes. If you limit your shooting to the appropriate types of game at appropriate distances. Large-bore muzzleloaders will kill anything in N. America when loaded right, but the fact remains that there is a practical limit to the ranges one can shoot at big game and expect the gun to perform adequately. The bigger and/or tougher the target, the shorter the range is going to be.
In terms of the types of bullets and powders you can use, that depends a lot on the design of the rifle, and there are really no "one size fits all" muzzleloaders out there. If you're wanting to shoot smokeless powder then you're only option is the Savage ML-10 series rifles, as they are the only ML's certified to be safe with smokeless. All muzzleloaders are designed to shoot black powder and it's substitutes (Pyrodex, Clean Shot, Triple 7, etc...), on a by volume for volume basis with black.
The type of bullet that will best work in a ML is mostly dependant on the twist rate of the barrel. A rifle designed with a slow twist rate perfect for roundballs (1 in 48" and slower) will not properly stabilize longer conicals and sabot bullets. Whereas a muzzleloader designed to excel with heavy conicals and sabots with a fast twist (1 in 32" and faster) will overstabilize roundballs and make accuracy somewhat erratic. This means that you need to decide what kind of projectile you're like to use before you buy the gun.
To get to my best suggestion for a muzzleloading rifle for you I'd say that you'd probably best look at a high quality scoped .50 caliber (Knight, Thompson/Center, CVA, Savage, Remington, Winchester, etc...) with a 1 in 28" twist (most are offered this way now). Pick an effective, high quality, bullet with a high ballistic coefficient to retain velocity and accuracy at long range (PR QT polymer tipped bullets are very good bullets with high BC's and exceptional accuracy that will do a number on thin skinned game). My Knight DISC with the 235 grain .40cal sabot QT bullets will shoot 3" groups at 150 yards most of the time with a 4x scope rested on a tacklebox and towel. If it misses it's probably me, not the rifle.
Another rule of thumb to consider is the 1100 rule (as I call it). Determine the rough muzzle velocity of the bullet/load combo and the BC. Use a ballistic calculator (www.handloads.com has one) to figure out the trajectory, velocity and energy at various range increments. Find out where the ft/lbs of kinetic energy drops below the 1100 ft/lbs mark and this is the absolute max range of the bullet to quickly and cleanly harvest deer (if you do your part, that is).
Good luck,
Mike
Gun control means putting the second bullet through the same hole as the first- Ted Nugent
NRA Member
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Ben Franklin
To address your list point-for-point:
1) There are certainly good muzzleloaders out there for less than $300. I bought my Traditions Buckhunter Pro nickle plated for $150 on clearance at Walmart. It's a good gun, but it only likes shooting heavy conicals (460 grain flatpoints at about 1300-1400fps), which means that it's at best a 100 yard gun. After 100 yards the steep trajectory makes it more of an indirect fire weapon (read mortar) than a rifle. If you want a premium quality gun with all the accessories you'll need to shoot it, you're probably going to far exceed your spending limit.
2) I quess that depends on your definition of a tight group. If you're expecting benchrest rifle accuracy out of any muzzleloader you're probably dreaming. That being said, most modern quality ML's will shoot very good groups if fed a bullet/load combo that is appropriate for the rifle and that the rifle likes (see response to question 5).
3) This one's more realistic. ML's have a well deserved reputation for being dirty shooting guns, but just because they shoot dirty doesn't mean they're particularly hard to clean. Actual fouling depends on the powder used, but black powder and it's subs usually clean up very quickly in just hot soapy water. If there is lead or plastic fouling in the bore it is cleaned just like it's centerfire cousins. The hardest thing I've found to clean is the 209 primer fouling blown back into the bolt on my DISC, but it just needs a good nitro solvent just like a smokeless CF gun.
4) If you're looking for a ML that will be effective on deer, particularly past 100 yards, you're going to have to deal with the inevitable consequence of propelling a heavy enough chunk of metal at high enough velocities to humanely harvest the animal in question. Even shooting a fairly light .490 roundball with a mild charge of 70 grains you're going to get noticable (but not necessarily uncomfortable) recoil, but you're looking at a 75-100 yard gun with that load at best. If you want to reach out farther it means loading heavier, ballistically superior, bullets with a lot more powder to get the velocity up. This comes with the price of very stiff recoil.
5) Versatal, yes. If you limit your shooting to the appropriate types of game at appropriate distances. Large-bore muzzleloaders will kill anything in N. America when loaded right, but the fact remains that there is a practical limit to the ranges one can shoot at big game and expect the gun to perform adequately. The bigger and/or tougher the target, the shorter the range is going to be.
In terms of the types of bullets and powders you can use, that depends a lot on the design of the rifle, and there are really no "one size fits all" muzzleloaders out there. If you're wanting to shoot smokeless powder then you're only option is the Savage ML-10 series rifles, as they are the only ML's certified to be safe with smokeless. All muzzleloaders are designed to shoot black powder and it's substitutes (Pyrodex, Clean Shot, Triple 7, etc...), on a by volume for volume basis with black.
The type of bullet that will best work in a ML is mostly dependant on the twist rate of the barrel. A rifle designed with a slow twist rate perfect for roundballs (1 in 48" and slower) will not properly stabilize longer conicals and sabot bullets. Whereas a muzzleloader designed to excel with heavy conicals and sabots with a fast twist (1 in 32" and faster) will overstabilize roundballs and make accuracy somewhat erratic. This means that you need to decide what kind of projectile you're like to use before you buy the gun.
To get to my best suggestion for a muzzleloading rifle for you I'd say that you'd probably best look at a high quality scoped .50 caliber (Knight, Thompson/Center, CVA, Savage, Remington, Winchester, etc...) with a 1 in 28" twist (most are offered this way now). Pick an effective, high quality, bullet with a high ballistic coefficient to retain velocity and accuracy at long range (PR QT polymer tipped bullets are very good bullets with high BC's and exceptional accuracy that will do a number on thin skinned game). My Knight DISC with the 235 grain .40cal sabot QT bullets will shoot 3" groups at 150 yards most of the time with a 4x scope rested on a tacklebox and towel. If it misses it's probably me, not the rifle.
Another rule of thumb to consider is the 1100 rule (as I call it). Determine the rough muzzle velocity of the bullet/load combo and the BC. Use a ballistic calculator (www.handloads.com has one) to figure out the trajectory, velocity and energy at various range increments. Find out where the ft/lbs of kinetic energy drops below the 1100 ft/lbs mark and this is the absolute max range of the bullet to quickly and cleanly harvest deer (if you do your part, that is).
Good luck,
Mike
Gun control means putting the second bullet through the same hole as the first- Ted Nugent
NRA Member
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Ben Franklin
12-11-2002, 06:25 AM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rochester Indiana USA
Posts: 71
RE: 200 + yards ???
Like always, you guys are the best...
OK, forget the two hundred yards, (even though the box says it will fire acurately).
I was looking at a CVA Firebolt 209 ultra magnum, one reason was the 26" barrel. Am I wrong in thinking that this barrel will provide more acuracey and less kick then a 24"???
I was also thinking of using sabots, I figure they would be more acurate and more for distance.
I'll check back later, thanks...
Jim
OK, forget the two hundred yards, (even though the box says it will fire acurately).
I was looking at a CVA Firebolt 209 ultra magnum, one reason was the 26" barrel. Am I wrong in thinking that this barrel will provide more acuracey and less kick then a 24"???
I was also thinking of using sabots, I figure they would be more acurate and more for distance.
I'll check back later, thanks...
Jim
12-11-2002, 06:26 AM
#10
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Muncie Indiana USA
Posts: 234
RE: 200 + yards ???
I don't think 300 bucks is going to cut it. I have a white with scope set 3in. high at 100yd. Using 90gr.b/p 440 powerpunch bullet, I can hit a paperplate at 200yds. using a rest and 15in. high. Cost aroung 700 bucks.
If you find one I'll take 2.