Pglasgow

They don't include hunters who get tags but don't go hunting in the success calculation.

What I would find interesting, is the success ratio for the late season hunts where the deer are concentrated at lower elevation and needing to spend more time feeding. It would not surprise me to find the success in these seasons greater than rifle. Also I would bet the success ratio for ML'ers also includes the traditional season. I would bet that success for scoped inlines is considerably higher.

MLKeith, we are OK.

I thought this thread died?

goatbrother

Idaho's muzzleloader hunts are all late in the year many are depradation hunts too, and the locations are in wintering areas, that combined with the late November early December time frames and yes, the animals would tend to be more concentrated and easier to hunt.

Scoped Inlines?? Nope, never were allowed in Idaho for muzzleloader seasons, ever as far as I know, but my experiance hunting Idaho with a muzzleloader only goes back 12 years.

There is a lot of data availible and as with such things the data can be interpreted and manipulated to suit ones needs or viewpoint. The game department presented the info showing favor to it's point of view but to others it is full of holes. The F&G couldn's just make an arbitrary ruleing so they came up with a smokescreen of data to make it look legitiment. At least that is how I see it.

sabotloader

Pglasgow

Following up a bit on goatbrother's statement - no scopes in Idaho on ML's- this rule exists under the old rules and the new rules... further under the old Idaho rules modern inline muzzleloaders are not legal either.

Inlines as well as sidehamers:

must be ignited by caps or musket caps... 209's not legal
must have open exposed breeches
must shoot a bullet .428 above in diameter

So you can see these rules did not allow the super inline as I call them, along with the rules listed above and the rule requiring open sights you can see that the potential of the modern inline rifle in Idaho was already seriously curbed.

Now the new rules even bring the two guns closer together, with the addition of a lead bullet 10/1000 of the bore and loose BP or synthetic powder. With these two rules the State has virtually equalized both guns. The next part of the rule was written in to eliminate the inline when they said it had to be a pivoting hammer. Then the uproar bypeople brought to light that there are some older inlines out that still qualify with these rules, so now the State is saying yes some inlines are still legal. I maintain that it (the rules and the State) are discriminating against a lot of other inlines that meet all the specifications, but have falling hammer such as the Whites, Black Diamonds, Remingtons, A&H's, and others that you all know of. Modern Inlines like the Encore, Omega, and any other of the closed breech 209 shooting inlines have never qualified and will not qualify under either set of rules.

Pglasgow

Without the pivoting hammer, that brings Idaho to basically one step further than Colorado. I do agree that there is very little difference between an inline and a traditional, given all the other restrictions. I think you could overturn this decision by getting an audience with F&G. But I do recommend that it not be presented as a "you shouldn't be catering to traditionalists" argument. Inlineusers shouldjoin and attend meetings of theState's Muzzle Loading Association.You can bet your boots that they fought hard to preservehunting access for its members.

I am confused about the seasons, though. Totally, I am afraid. I was thinking that Idaho had a bowseason, a muzzleloading season (traditionals only), and a rifle season (where one can use any weapon). I was also thinking that they had some special late seasons which were set aside for muzzleloading weapons to include scoped inlines. I was also thinking that you and your friend harvested whitetails during one of these special late muzzleloading hunts. In any event, as you and others work for a reconciliation of ideas about inline use with F&G, don't let next season pass any of you guys by.Get out there!

sabotloader

Pglasgow

Correct sort of... there is also a "Traditional Season" in there. There are a lot of "seasons" that you have to choose to fit yourself into. General deer, Whitetail only, "A" tag season "B" tag season + controlled hunts (drawings)... it is kinda a confusing thing but if you have been here long enough you figure it out.

No scopes allowed in any ML season + all the other regs that I have mentioned....

I hunt all year with a ML now - I do use a modern ML during the regular season. My hunting partner uses a regular rifle during the Elk season and switches to a Hawken @ the end of elk season - all ofthis occurs during the regular season. At the end of the regular season we have a 7 day deer (doe - whitetail only)season for ML's, unless you have an "A" tag that will allow you to bowhunt and then have a ML elk season at the end of the year. If you choose a "B" tag no bowhunting and no ML elk season. In southern Idaho there are a lot more controlled hunts open to ML only

goatbrother

Your not confused on the seasons, Idaho has Archery, Modern (centerfire) and muzzleloader seasons (both muzzleloader and traditional muzzleloader) at present (pre 2007). Over the past 3 years F&G has implimented special Traditional Muzzleloading seasons (that replaced the regular Muzzleloader seasons), few at first then more and more until 2007 when they redefined the muzzleloader criteria making only pivoting locks legal state wide. In addition to those they have various special hunts for short range weapons too.

Pglasgow

This, I am sure, doesn't apply to all states but in many I think it would, though not particularly the historically sparsely populated western states. Many states have been be growing a deer herd. Oklahoma is a good example. When I began deerhunting, our harvest was only around 21,000 animals, no does were allowed then. The harvest now I think is over 140,000 animals and the herd continues to grow. When I visit my Dad, I typically see more deer than cottontails. Didn't use to be that way.

When the ML season was introduced in Oklahoma, the DOWC was thinking, this is a good way to increase access and revenues while still growing the herd. The muzzleloading lobby which bargained for it were thinking, it willbe great to have our own season where rifle hunters won't be a field. It worked for DOWC because it added one more layer of primitive feather ruffling, on top of bow season, which reminded the deer each year that they were being hunting by men. The deer were more alert by rifle season and because some deer were already harvested in ML season, the harvest did not go up substantially over not having the season, they increased access and revenues while still growing the herd. There was a lot of juice for the squeeze so to speak, juice being access and revenue, squeeze being additional harvest.

In many states, ML seasons are early, before deer are rutting, and are not generally the best hunting seasons. Its one of the reasons I apply for rifle in Colorado even though I will hunt with my muzzleloader. The other reason is access. I can draw a rifle tag easier in my preferred unit.But the point being made is that ML hunters have neverbeen coddled byWildlife Conservation Agencies. Were they,they'dget theseasonthe rifle hunters getduring"prime time". Preserving rifle season is probably their greatest priority because failing that will have far greater political consequences than messing with ML seasons.

Finally, I really do encourage the involvement of Idaho inline users with their State's Muzzleloading Association. Yes they are mostly traditionalists, but they wouldn't be the majority if ALL OF YOU participated. They participate in all the fundraisers for F&G, they make their presence known inpositive, constructive ways. They are directly involved not just as supporters, F&G has a clear understanding they are supporters who love muzzleloading.

Yoter

Everybody that is an Idaho resident needs to call their regional Commisioner and voice your opinion. I just spoke with mine, and he said that they will not officially write the rules until their meeting in March. In the mean time, they are working to clarify what they decided upon. In particular, the requirement for a pivoting ignition, where most in-line muzzleloaders that were previously legal in Idaho would have remained legal without that particular stipulation. In other words, if you have an in-line that has an exposed ignition, it should remain legal. Please, call and voice your opinions. You can find the name and number of your Commissioner on the IDF&G website.