cayugad

[quote]ORIGINAL: B.C. Hunter

independent ignition system, volume measured powderloads VS weighed powder loads (in most cases), powders subject to weather and temperature variations, loads subject to loading pressure variations, increase in fowling in many cases, the need for swabbing to even load a second shot in some cases....pour powder down barrel, insert projectile, short start projectile in some cases, remove ramrod, use ramrod to seatprojectile, replace ramrod, cock hammer or open action, insert primeror cap, fire. Now some cases, swab the barrel with damp patch, swab the barrel with dry patch, and repeat process.



If it takes you longer than 30-45 sec on a cold bad day to reload you need more pratice. I own and in line and Hawken 50. If your useing loose powder or pellets big difference. As for center fire i've taken deer out past 800yrds. During a pw season scoped weapons should be banned. I would not take an open sight shot with a ml past 125-150 tops.

With a center fire 800 yard shots are not imposible. I personally would not try one, but there are some that would. Also during a PRIMITIVE MUZZLELOADING SEASON most scopes are banned. But Idaho I believe, and many other State do not have a PRIMITIVE SEAON. They have a muzzleloading season. Muzzleloaders require that the rifle is loaded through the muzzle like an inline or a traditonal rifle. But as so often, any time someone wants to stress the traditional view pointof muzzleloading season they like to throw the word Primitive or Traditional in addition, which sheds a whole different light on the topic.

As for the amount of time it takes me to reload, that is really not important. While I practice speed drills, instead I prefer to make the first shot count, reload at a goodbut a safe pace doing every thing right. After all these are not center fire rifles are they? As for my amount of practice, it might surprise you how much practice I actually get in a years time.

When I was told this exact statement you made once by a fellow, I suggested to the person ... meet me at the range. I will bring my Remington Woodsmaster Semi Auto 30-06 and we will have a timed shoot. They then told me, well that's not fair. I guess the muzzlelaoder was not the same as a center fire rifle suddenly in their opinion.


Where in my text did I ever mention a semi auto. Stay focused. You lost direction.

My mistake. I realize you were pointing out that a modern muzzleloader is equal to a center fire.. As you quoted;

Quote:

I own a in-line and there is little difference between it and a single shot centerfire.

So the reason I mentioned a semi automatic was that was in a conversation with someone other then you. When I made the offer to the other person, I suggested my semi. He felt he would equal any center fire. So stay focused. I refuse to lie, and when I discussed this same topic it was my Remington Woodsmaster I discussed with the other person. But since you want a single shot center fire to compete against, how about you go against my Ruger M77 in 7mm mag, and I will only load one cartridge at a time. I'd still be willing to bet, I'd beat you on a timed shoot. And at some remarkable distances.

Perhaps because there are many shooters that disagree with your evaluation of the muzzleloader, and feel that in the Idaho case, something they had as a privilege was taken away from them. Any time you take something from me with out my knowledge (as I understand was the case in many Idaho hunters) you can bet I am going to cause a stink about it.


Cause all of the stink that you want, I'll stand beside you and cheer you in support of the sport. But you cant fight on just the fact that because you load it from the muzzle that it makes it a pw.

Here again we have pw. So youwant to address only primitive muzzleloaders. Simply because they load from the muzzle as inlines do, they don't fit in your game plan. Well thats fine with me. But many people feel a inline is much moreprimitive then a center fire. Just as you feel a flintlock or something is more primitive to an inline. So what's your point? And as forcausing a stink, I feel it is the duty of every sports person to stand up for their rights. When a State takes those rights away, you're darn right.. make a stink.


And to a great many hunters that makes them primitive.They are not a center fire rifle.

Just because a great many people bought another rifle to extend thier season doesnt make it so. And what's so wrong with someone wanting to spend more time in the woods hunting with what they want. Are you competing with them out there? Do you feel that if you use a primitive rifle, then everyone should? Why are some people so worried about what someone else hunts with. As long as its legal, I could care less.

If a great many hunters were spotlighting deer and elk would that make hunting under artificial sun light.No this would make those hunters using spotlights breaking the law. What that has to do with the topic I am not sure. This rant makes no sense what so ever. What does spotlighting have to do with Idaho deer hunting?The Idaho hunters were not breaking the law. The law was changed and their privilages were taken away. But you keep avoiding that issue.No both sides have thier points yours was not made it was a good rant though.I felt my responce to your post was very accurate as I wanted to post and was more then satisfied with it.and as far as meeting you at the range with your wood master at the ranges i shoot center fires you would have a hard time finding paper if you tried the spray and pray style.Spray and pray?Never. Ia very serious shooter.You would not have to spray and pray with a semi automatic to make them accurate. And the topic was shooting a MUZZLELOADER against an inline, not another center fire. Anyways I did write this to start a fight if you cant see the validity in the other side of the debate you have already lost.Your right, I can't see the validity of someone who had muzzleloader priviliges taken away and then told to accept it as valid. If someone only owned one rifle, an inline, and now since they live in Idaho can not use it during muzzleloader season I feel they have every reason to be upset. Also from reading the new regulations, they look almost custom made for a traditional rifle hunter. All fine and good if you sit on theother side of the fence. Not so good if your an inline shooter, that while you were not looking, they moved the fence line. I on your side just with a differet point of view. As I told you, I defend your right to your opinion just as I defend my opinion. Now one ever said we were going to agree, but I felt some of your statments were in need of a challenge, which I did.

sabotloader

BCHunter

You need to come in from the cold...

Idaho previoulsy had to ML hunts, a general ML hunt and a primative ML hunt. These regulations have been established over several years. Residents of Idaho have chosenwhich hunt they would like to participate in.

Another point you are missing even in the general ML hunt- modern inline ML's with scopes were not legal.

A majority of ML hunter in the state have purchased inline ML's that meet Idaho restrictions to hunt with. For several years Traditional ML clubs in the state have pressured the Fish & Game Department to do away with inlines, becuase they are not really ML's. Unfortunately the people that belong to these clubs a much more organized than the general population of inline hunters. We do not get together at group meetings or fun days.... most of are like farmers - very independent - working our way through life, I don't think we could organize if we wanted to, all we can do at this point is write to the F&G and try to make our voices heard. We never knew this was coming about it was just dropped in our laps.

Unfortunately the F&G commission beleives mush the same way you do, and they have been directed that way by the ads on TV and testimony by Trad ML clubs - Inlines are just like real rifles... they are not - not even close. Even a Ruger #1 has miles of advantages over modern Encore/Omega (which are models we can not use in Idaho) even if the the Ruger is open sights. I can hunt all day in the worst weather with a #1 and have no concerns about it going off. I can shoot farther and I can shoot more often. I can shoot across canyons, clearcuts - up a steep slope at staggering ranges and I can do by aiming right on even if the animal is moving....

With your attitude you would make a good canidate for the current Idaho Fish and Game Commission, they have failed to do their home work also.

B.C. Hunter

First you two have some impression that I am a purest. I will and do hunt any season that is offered period.I dont personally care what kind of rifle you hunt with or what the season is as long as you hunt butI will tell about comming in from the cold I have done more to advance the outdoor sports and will continue to do so than 99% of the people out there from money to donated hunts and habitat restoration.if you want to hunt smokeless or true powder do it did Idaho cancel a season or modify it to reflect a groups interest? Is that not what your asking for. So where do your concerns or wants out wieght someone elses. I hunt in 9 states and three countries every year I spend every second I can in the field any season it doesn't matter. I understand your point of view and believe in it as well. If we dont come together as a whole our sport in general will be at risk one day.If your going to try and quote me at least get it right dont make sh## up. there is nothing wrong with modifying a season to address a groups interest or if the success of the season is starting to be affected by improveing tech.

cayugad

B.C. Hunter, I never felt you were a purist. And I commend you for your efforts to promote hunting. But just because you have the opportunity to hunt as much as you claim, does not make your opinion right and someone else wrong. I too support the hunting tradition and sports but in my own way. Maybe not as glamerous as your method but every little bit helps.

"If your going to try and quote me at least get it right dont make sh## up." If this was directed at me whichI believe it was, I can not find where I made something up. If I did .. sorry.

" there is nothing wrong with modifying a season to address a groups interest or if the success of the season is starting to be affected by improveing tech." I disagree with that. That's easy to say when you are not the one being effected. Anytime you favor one over the other, someone is not hunting. But that does not seem to bother you. Someone looses their hunting priviliges for the sake of some other group. As long as you're not in that group I guess that makes it all right.

As for the improvement in technology, well that could have been regulated without banning the inline rifles in Idaho. I'd rather have anyone that wants to, get a chance to hunt then instead of excluding them from the picture. But then that's my opinion.
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sabotloader

B.C. Hunter

They did... at the request of an ORGANIZED, vocal minority group.

I do go along with it but it is also the majority of ML hunters in the state, we are just not organized or vocal - we are becoming more vocal but it may be to late.

MO Archer

Do you wear modern camo while you hunt with a pw? Do you carry a cell phone while you hunt with a pw? Do you use a gps while you hunt with your pw? Did you drive a truck to get to your hunting area to hunt with your pw? Did you use the internet or TV to get information on the weather before you went hunting with your pw? All of these technological advancesaffect the success of a season- should a state be able to take them away without letting you know?

Pglasgow

This thread is degenerating. If we were all honest, we would agree that all of our seasons are not guaranteed nor is access to hunting opportunity. A terribly severe winter has the potential ofthat in Idaho. Any season or the number of allowed licenses can be altered and changed without our permission whenever the stewards ofIdaho's wildlife decide it is necessary.

If we were all honest, we would agree that ML seasonswere originally meant to be primitive in the nature of weapon. It was understood then, thatone would be hunting with a traditional rifle, generally with roundball or maxiball, using iron sights. Traditionalists are not the enemy, they lobbied for the seasons we now enjoy with our 209 ignited, single shot, better than many centerfire, MUZZLOADINGrifles. I could make a list of centerfire rifles my inline muzzleloaders are more capable than, (and if not mine many others report that kind of performance). Like 2500 fps with a 200 SW, 1.5" at 150 yards, a rifle capable of 300 yard kills. Thereare many centerfire rifles which cannot compete with that either for accuracy, or energy on target.

If we were all honest, we'd agree that State Game and Fish Conservation Departments have been very tolerant to the advancementsof muzzleloading technologies. In most cases, viewing these advancements tounge in cheek, willing to take a wait and see approach. It is easy to construe this as aright, but cayugad is correct in calling it a privilege. But lets be honest,privilege, not being right, issomething one can not demand, privilege is extended, not taken.

What is now happening, we have folks all over the country, who are telling Idaho Game and Fish how us folks in Colorado, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Oklahoma, and so on would likefor them to manage their wildlife resources. The primary motivation and encouragement? The fear that their own states may limit their use of inline technologies in ML seasons. There is something wrong with this scenario. Can't anyone see whats wrong with it?

It is clear to me that Idaho Game and Fish is gonna manage best they can in the political environment they have to manage in. If they keep ML seasons as they have been prior to the changes,one will see a decline in hunting opportunity. B. C. wrote this . . "I dont personally care what kind of rifle you hunt with or what the season is as long as you hunt . . ." There is alot of wisdom here guys. As long as you hunt. If opportunity is reduced, (access to licenses, which is privilege), thenfewer will hunt. Is it really fair to reduce access to hunting privilege, especially to those whose weapons, truly are primitive, and meet the spirit of the original intent of the season? I don't want an answer and I'm not responding to any response, I'm just throwing out 2 cents. If Idaho loses hunting access due to an Okie's fear of not being able to use his Savage, what a loss that is for Idaho and nothing gained actually for the Okie.

trharder

Glasgow,
First of all, would you mind revealing your load with the 200 SW that you can
shoot out to 300 yards? I would like to try that for varmints and paper.
Seriously.

Second, Idaho already had two different ML seasons. It is the regular ML
season that is being changed and even then you could not equip your
rifle to make it a true "modern" inline. If the changes were made without
the "pivoting hammer" requirement, I don't think you would have heard
quite as much grumbling. The bottom line is some hunters are going to
have to buy a new gun for *no* factual reason. If we were all honest.

B.C. Hunter

MO

Your post was invalid. If you could not figure out what the previous posts we're talking about trying reading it again. Never was there anything mentioned about somthing other than rifles or optics. I dont care if you hunt in your wifes old nightgowns and slippers or your enigma camo standing in you POS gorilla treestand. Your post had not purpose, now if we were talking about if radios should be allowed to be used during a hunt then your post would be valid. But you were jumping in to through a little gas on the fire not to add to this topic. I'm for all types of hunting it doesn't matter but as stated bymany others there was a point to be made by thier actions reguardless if you or I agree with it or not.

oldwun

I feel you folk's pain. I lived in Colo for several years and their liberal ways of doing things got under my skin. They made and changed laws to suit threir own personal or contributor's ways. Here in Tenessee they ask all hunters their thoughts on allowing crossbows for anyone during the archery season. Over 79% said no. 30 days later is was law. I am not against CB but I worked part time in a shop that sold CB's and the week before the season we sold over 100 CB's. Most shot them at our target and went hunting on saturday. What I am saying is yes we need management but don't segment the hunters choice of weapon and punish one type of weapon.