TUK101

As good as that sounds when talking about the matter of principal involved, nobody ever really wins in the end once lawyers get involved. Even with a large club paying for a good lawyer, it would take tens of thousands of dollars by the time the case was dragged out in the courts. But I do agree, they should have at least given people a one year warning on this issue. I live in Washington State which is known for taking the very extremist side of things, and have yet to buy a muzzleloader. We already have stiff laws on inlines, with holes drilled in the bolt, or a bolt that doesnt seat all the way to leave just enough room for rain to get in there and ruin your day, and we cannot use the 209 primers, but rather the traditional caps. I myself think that when I do get my Muzzleloader it will be an traditional Hawkins style with the sidehammer. Then I know that not if, but when Washington State decides to one up Idaho on the extremist hunting regulations that I will be safe lol. Now know that I am being somewhat sarcastic here, so dont flame me too bad lol. Geez, here where I am at the does have gotten so thick that they are giving away dozens of permits every year to the local farmers to thin them out. And I cannot think of a better way to do it than with a m/l.

alleyyooper

Ya I said it would take a while to win a court case. But in the mean time (new) Idea ho will think before passing any more rules that makes equipment less valued to the people that live in that state. It might even curtail other states from passing the same stupid rules with out warning to the residents of said state. I know I would be mad really mad if I had saved my money and did with out somethings to buy a new Pro Hunter or even an Ultmate, get it for Christmas and have some jerks that don't know a Duck from a Crow sayI can't use it in a ML season. With the list of stupid reasons they gave.
This should have came about waYYYYYYYYYYY back in 1985 (I think that is when the first Knight inline came out) Not wait over 22 years.
If it is called ML season then any ML should be legal. If it is call Primitive season then that should be clearly defined. I would hate to have spear hunters stop me from useing my flint lock rifle.

I like Dave am really up set over this even though it is many states away from me. But I know why I am upset. It is becaues it could happen here. Then when that happens the next step it the end to the side hammer gun hunts cause since they got their way and took me and my inline out of the right to hunt with it picture, I sure am not going to rush to their rescue when they are about to loose their right.

A few years ago we in Michigan got Proposal G passed and the game commision can not set any rules with out useing sound scincetife game management. I wonder how that would stand up to the (new) Idea ho rules.


Al

Roskoe

You won't get as far taking it to civil court as you will organizing a political coupe. I would start an organization - call it something like "Sportsmen for Reponsible IDFG". Don't even talk to the IDFG - go right to the legislature and the newspapers. Get some sympathetic state house and senate members to put pressure on IDFG. Circulate a petition - threaten an full recall of the entire IDFG Commission. This is how we did it out here. It worked.

B.C. Hunter

come on people you cant tell me that a an in-line ML is a PW. No way even the side hammer ML is still reaching. Not using sabbots is a start. There needs to be a different designation for in-lines without question. I own a in-line and there is little difference between it and a single shot centerfire. Your range is less but your good out to 250-300 yrds. After that a center fire makes a difference. Why does everyone look for somthing to BI*** about when they know the reason is valid. I know this is a sore topic but be real. Just my .02.

dmurphy317

Not to throw fuel on the fire but my sidelock is good to 250 or 300 yards too with the right load. The only real difference is the sighting device from a practical range standpoint, all else being equal.

B.C. Hunter

Check these guys out.
www.flintlocks.com

cayugad

I would be the first to defend thatyou are entitled to your opinion...

Quote:

come on people you cant tell me that a an in-line ML is a PW. No way even the side hammer ML is still reaching.

That would depend on some one's idea of a primitive weapon. Many of us are not hunting with rifles such as aMatchlock, Wheellock, Arquebuse, Snaphaunce, or such rifle. Even the use of flintlocks is not as common as it used to be. But an inline or side lock still load from the muzzle. They still have an independent ignition system. That makes them a muzzleloader. And to a great many hunters that makes them primitive.They are not a center fire rifle.


I read your post and have a number of problems with it. If for this instance, we are talkinga scoped muzzleloader, a 250-300 yard shot might be possible. I would be the last to recommend it or even try it for that matter. People shooting that distance need to spend a great deal of time on load development and practice. And then you need to keep with this kind of practice and load work as they can change from temperature to temperature and season to season. On the other hand I have a 7mm mag I have not shot for manyyears, but I am sure I could take it off the rack and make a shot like you described right now. In fact maybe even further.

If your rifle is unscoped, I personally feel 99% of black powder shooters have no ethical reason to be taking a shot at that distance with any kind of muzzlelaoder. Granted the rifle will be able to project a bullet that far, but I find close to exact shot placement by the majority of shooters just not possible.What kind of group do you expect an average muzzleloader shooter could make at that distance? How about you? I don't care what rifle your shooting or projectile your using.

Taking the optics from a muzzleloader in most cases make them a short range rifle. I personally with open sights would not want to shoot past 125 yards at a deer. I never shot a elk so maybe that distance could be stretched, but it would be a good stretch.

muzzleloaders;
independent ignition system, volume measured powderloads VS weighed powder loads (in most cases), powders subject to weather and temperature variations, loads subject to loading pressure variations, increase in fowling in many cases, the need for swabbing to even load a second shot in some cases....pour powder down barrel, insert projectile, short start projectile in some cases, remove ramrod, use ramrod to seatprojectile, replace ramrod, cock hammer or open action, insert primeror cap, fire. Now some cases, swab the barrel with damp patch, swab the barrel with dry patch, and repeat process.

VS

modern center fire; open action, insert factory produced cartridge, close action, fire. repeat procedure for next shot.

When I was told this exact statement you made once by a fellow, I suggested to the person ... meet me at the range. I will bring my Remington Woodsmaster Semi Auto 30-06 and we will have a timed shoot. They then told me, well that's not fair. I guess the muzzlelaoder was not the same as a center fire rifle suddenly in their opinion.

based on your opinion and not that of countless thousands of other muzzleloader shooters.

Perhaps because there are many shooters that disagree with your evaluation of the muzzleloader, and feel that in the Idaho case, something they had as a privilege was taken away from them. Any time you take something from me with out my knowledge (as I understand was the case in many Idaho hunters) you can bet I am going to cause a stink about it.

I do not live or hunt in Idaho. But when a State starts changing the rules like this, the next time they want to take something more away is that much easier. Also many other States examine their hunting rules by what other States do, they see actions like this and consider trying to follow a similar path. Example, shortly after the Idaho incident I heard Minnesota outlawed smokeless powder. Again, this does not effect me, but what do you think the Savage and some custom rifle owners are thinking?

Of course all of this is just my opinion as well.

I could not agree more.

sabotloader

B.C. Hunter

Actually you are wrong, unless you work for an inline manufacturer, or you are shooting a Savage smokless... And actually that is exactly the thinking that was implied to the Idaho Fish and Game by organized ML groups. I shoot both guns inlines and sidehammers and when the Idaho rules are applied to both guns it really makes them equal.

I would agree with your assesment IF we were allowed to use modern high performance muzzleloaders that are on the market now.

If you apply all the Idaho rules there is virtually no difference between the two guns. In Idaho even previous to the new rules you could not use what most people would call a modern high performance inline.

The regulations say...

open exposed breech
cap ignition only
no scopes
no 209 ignition
must be loaded from the muzzle
.428 minimum projectile

new rules

all of the above - with 10/1000 of the bore
all lead projectile
loose powder only
pivoting hammer

put all these regulations together and you virtually neutralize the inline to a convnetional sidelock. Either one of these two guns can fire equally well to 300/400 yards (and actually far beyond)if your eyes and your abilities are good enough. Mostpeople will be able to shoot to 150 yards with either one.

You are reading way to many ads from TC and Knight.

alleyyooper

Also if ya run a check at the US pat. office you will see patens for inlines muzzle loading rifles as far back as the early 1800.

Al

B.C. Hunter

independent ignition system, volume measured powderloads VS weighed powder loads (in most cases), powders subject to weather and temperature variations, loads subject to loading pressure variations, increase in fowling in many cases, the need for swabbing to even load a second shot in some cases....pour powder down barrel, insert projectile, short start projectile in some cases, remove ramrod, use ramrod to seatprojectile, replace ramrod, cock hammer or open action, insert primeror cap, fire. Now some cases, swab the barrel with damp patch, swab the barrel with dry patch, and repeat process.



If it takes you longer than 30-45 sec on a cold bad day to reload you need more pratice. I own and in line and Hawken 50. If your useing loose powder or pellets big difference. As for center fire i've taken deer out past 800yrds. During a pw season scoped weapons should be banned. I would not take an open sight shot with a ml past 125-150 tops.


When I was told this exact statement you made once by a fellow, I suggested to the person ... meet me at the range. I will bring my Remington Woodsmaster Semi Auto 30-06 and we will have a timed shoot. They then told me, well that's not fair. I guess the muzzlelaoder was not the same as a center fire rifle suddenly in their opinion.


Where in my text did I ever mention a semi auto. Stay focused. You lost direction.

Perhaps because there are many shooters that disagree with your evaluation of the muzzleloader, and feel that in the Idaho case, something they had as a privilege was taken away from them. Any time you take something from me with out my knowledge (as I understand was the case in many Idaho hunters) you can bet I am going to cause a stink about it.


Cause all of the stink that you want, I'll stand beside you and cheer you in support of the sport. But you cant fight on just the fact that because you load it from the muzzle that it makes it a pw.


And to a great many hunters that makes them primitive.They are not a center fire rifle.


Just because a great many people bought another rifle to extend thier season doesnt make it so. If a great many hunters were spotlighting deer and elk would that make ithunting under artificial sun light and should be allowed just to extend the hours in the day. No both sides have thier points yours was not made it was a good rant though. and as far as meeting you at the range with your wood master at the rangesI shoot center fires you would have a hard time finding paper if you tried the spray and pray style. Anyways I didnt write this to start a fight if you cant see the validity in the other side of the debate you have already lost. Im on your side just with a differet point of view.