Roskoe

Their response sounds remarkably like a politically correct version of what Underclocked posted at the top of page 2.

Pglasgow

I'm not comparing Colorado and Idahoon anything but hunting access. Colorado is more restricted, best I can tell, from Sabotloader's description of how he obtains a license. I put in for the local GMU so I have about a 5% chance of drawing with no preference and 100% chance the following year if I fail. I can't just walk up to the counter, buy a buck tag, and hunt where I want. Its harder to get a ML tag for Deer in the GMU I wish to hunt, so I don't apply for it. Granted I obtained a doe tag for a GMU which was 5 hours away in the leftovers but I would notsay that is more desirable than the situation Sabotloader described in Idaho. Being able to decide where you hunt (which GMU) has alot to do with hunting access as does time in the field. I could only devote 2 days to hunting on for the leftover tag in the remote GMU.

Honestly, I saw Idahohaving to decidebetweenrestricting access tothe late seasonsor retricting the allowed hunting methods. In fact, thats what they said they were doing. I said this before, this is only the beginning of regulations in the West which will be designed to maintain sustainable harvest while offering as much access as can be granted to meet the former goal.

It just isn't clear to me that this is an effort on the part ofIdaho to appease traditional muzzleloading enthusiasts demands of restricting access to inline muzzloading enthusiats. This theory makes for heated debate but I don't think its about that. I'm sure the traditionalists were lobbying to retain access to the seasons with more primitive weapons, after all, they lobbied for special muzzleloading seasons to begin with, on account of primitive nature of their weapons.

I figure Idaho Game and Fish has a job to do. If threatened with recall, I am sure they will do it in a different way. But I'm not so sure everyone will be happy with the other solutions. Being happy with Game and Fish probably isn't going to get any easier given that some type of regulation or restricted access is a forgone conclusion.

Roskoe, I haven't been here (in Colorado) as long as you. Is Colorado today very much like what it once was? I mean in terms of herd numbers, animal quality, hunter density, hunting access, and so on. Were there better times? Out East, many states have herds brimming with numbers never before seen, like in my home state of Oklahoma where 5 deer are allowed each year, over the counter. Oklahoma happens to have very liberal ML regs now (basically anything goes),I figure because, they want more deer harvested.

I was also curious. Whendid Colorado ML hunters lose access to Elk in the peak of rut or did they once have this access as I have been told? In your opinion, was this a change brought about by inline technology and scopes being brought to the field?

sabotloader

cayugad

I think I have told you before, you missed your calling you should have been a politician. Your writings are so very well done they address the problem across the board.

The problems I have is:

1. How can 48% to 44% vote of a fraction of the people involved give you a mandate for the sweeping changes?
2. Without any notice they have made the average Joe's inline worthless in the State of Idaho. If not worthless certainly worth-less. That is a big hit on the economy of some families. If the feel these changes are mandated and they will actually do some good why was not a grace period offered, to allow Idaho hunters an opportunity get out from under their current gun and time to allow them to work into a new gun.

Also remember under the current State laws whichwould allowuse ML's you really could not use the current state of the art ML's. You had to use cap ignition, open/exposed breech, minimum .428 projectile, and no scopes. Further with the mandated new rules if they were to leave the inlines in play there would be no significant difference between the pivoting hammer and the inline... The inline would still be required to meet all the restriction listed above + lead bullet only, loose powder only. With all of these restriction is there a significant difference between my Hawken and my Remington?

3. One of the stated abjective was that the inline was taking to many Mule Deer, in North Idaho Mule deer are not that common at all - the Mule deer harvest occurs in southern Idaho. The population of the Mule deer herds is decreasing down there, but I am not sure that it is all due to hunting.... The population of people has almost doubled in southern Idaho - they are building and farming almost everything + the re-introduction of the wolf to southern Idaho and northern Idaho has really hurt big game.

4. It would be my estimate that easily 80% of the ML hunt in the state of Idaho occur in southern Idaho. What seasons we get up here are very short, usually a week, and limited to specific targets - whitetails does only - spikes only... Yet and again the large traditional hunter groups do inhabit the south.

5. In my particular case it is not as big deal as it is for a lot of others. I do choose to scope my inlines and I do choose to hunt with them during the regular season. I also choose to hunt with the Hawkens, Renegdes, or Lyman during ML season - my forced move to an all lead bullet is OK - I do not like it but I can work with it.

6. If they really wanted to increase the number of animals they could easily do it by changing the regular season to an all open class ML season. And offer special short seasons for centerfire rifles. I do not care what anyone says - no matter how great the companies say or any person - the best inline in the world will not compare to what I can do with my 300 Winchester Mag. I easily have increase opportiunites with that as compared to a ML.

7. One thing that bothers me as we do have a large University here, you will not believe the number of studentsthat will purchase an inepensive "pivoting hammer" gun and will go hunting with it late in the year. One of their frat brothers will be a hunter and he will tell everyone else in the house piece of cake go buy a gun some powder and a bullet and for $15 we can go hunting longer....

I gotta quit I am getting more frustrated....

Pglasgow - government does not always represent you - they represent the vocal and the folks with money. If the public did not stand up when a pecieved injustice is occurring what would really happen? I guess we could all take a chill pill and just SHUDUP! Certainly would make things easier for government.

gotta quit....

Pglasgow

So it is and this is the future for all of us out west. There is always room for discussion and perhaps in the Panhandle region there can be a late ML season for the whitetails there, even while, folks in the south retain access to late hunts for muliesonly by using traditionals. There will come a day when you will look back and today will be the good ole days when you could hunt where you wanted without waiting your turn in a draw.

cll

The traditonal group made the most noise and got their way so far.Now IDFG is trying to justify their decision to the public. IDFG just got done with their arial survey this week and #'s look good in the panhandle. If the #'s are up we must not be killing to many of them ? Or does a small group of hunters want the woods to just them. It makes me mad that I might have to change muzzleloaders but I will still hunt with a muzzleloader regardles of which style. By the way I think they tried this before and it did not work, When the regs come out in April we will know for sure.

Roskoe

Phil - I don't know if I would characterize things as having gotten better or worse in Colorado over that past 40 years. Deer used to be over populated. Elk used to be hard to come by. In the 1970's, the hunter success ratio for all elk (bulls and cows combined) was only 14%.

Up until about7 years ago, lots of deer tags were available on a statewide basis and most were sold over the counter. You could get a statewide MZ buck license with one point for sure -many timeswith zero points - and hunt some areas that, with a rifle, would take a decade to draw enough preference points. Based on some biologists recommendations, they made all deer tags (even archery) area specific. They also used to have a deer season, and then an elk season. Later they went to combined seasons to make more money off the out of state hunters.

So now, many deer areas are "undersubscribed" and others require as many as 14 preference points. The secret to deer hunting, it seems to me, is to hunt private land in one of the areas that you can get a buck license either through the drawing or with a landowner preference tag. This can either cost a little money or require knowing a rancher, but that seems to be the way it is anymore. In the world of muzzleloading in Colorado, however, deer are not the controversy. The folks who get to huntbucks in the December rut are primarily the archers. MZ deer season is in late October.

The real issue with muzzleloaders in Colorado is hunting elk during the rut. They let us hunt elk with MZ rifles right at the peak of the rut - which, on the average, peaks on September 18th in this part of the state. The archers get to start earlier and their season overlaps ours, extending a week past the end of the MZ elk season. And, like Idaho, the rationale was that modern improvements in muzzleloaders might make these weapons a little too efficient to let us continue to hunt at the peak of the rut. So we agreed to some reasonable restrictions. The ban on in lines was not reasonable. And we got it overturned within less than a year by fighting it on the political front. That's what they need to do in Idaho if they are as fired up about this as we were. If not, it will stand and they will be stuck with it till Walmart closes its doors.

Pglasgow

I am happy to read this as I must confess that I was rather disappointed with rut activity this year through out the whole of ML Elk season. Many I know are of the opinion that rut begins about the time ML Elk season ends. I know theywere really going in the Victor area in the last week of September just prior to First RifleSeason. I guess it was just late this year. The part that bums me is that it took a preference to draw and I may not draw next year when rut does a better job of coinciding with ML season.

Is it true that ML hunters once hunted throughout the whole of September with the bowhunters?Is a reduced season what you meant by reasonable restrictions agreed toforretaininglegal use of inlines? Again I haven't a clue as to what actually transpired, butI aminterested in what lost in the negotiations.

Roskoe

I'm kinda scratching my head here . . . . I didn't get into muzzleloadinguntil about 11 years ago. I really can't remember an elkseason that went from September 1st to September 30th; but it may have been a 14 day season years ago instead of a 10 day season. Either way, it still corresponds with the average peak of the rut. I have been told that the opening weekend is the best up north, and the second weekend is the one to hunt south of I-70. But every year is a little different. It can vary a week or more either way, depending on weather and other factors.

Pglasgow

Well then it had nothing to do with negotiations for retaining inlines. Every now and then I bump into an individual who is die hard traditionalist. There seems to be bad blood and I was curious as to whether they lost hunting access (via season length) due to accomodations for inline muzzleloaders. If this were the case, one could say the inliners negotiated away part of their season.

It was my brother who told me ML season was nearly a month long in the past. It confused me and I didn't put alot of stock in it. That is why I was asking. I do know he has been in Colorado since the middle 80's.

Maybe the stars will shine on me when I draw again.

alleyyooper

If I lived in (new) Idea ho I would start trying to round up as many inline ML hunters asI could and start a state wide club. First thing on tha agenda would be find a really good laywer and sue {class action}the state for the loss of value on inline ML's they cause with this ruleing with out prewarning. May take some years to recover any thing but I bet you could win it in the end.

Al