frontier gander

i emailed winchester about that and they limit 100 grains of loose powder mainly due to anything more would be a waste and not give a complete burn of powder. They also told me you can shoot up to 130 grains pyrodex/blackpowder safely with no issues. My normal load is 120 grains pyrodex RS with a 295 grain powerbelt. Last year i cut my charge down to 90 grains when i was using the 385 great plains bullet. Mainly just to tame the recoil. Ive never used triple 7 so i dont know how those loads work out. I prefer pyrodex RS. Ive shot up to 170 grains loosepyrodex rs with 295 powerbelt and it worked perfectly, also made a nice sparkler show of burning powder. So the 100 grains max limit they say in the book is mainly there for you so you dont waste powder. Enjoy the rifle.

Pglasgow

You know when I get back home, I'm gonna check my manual. I think a 100 grain limitation would have leapt out at me or maybe there is difference with Stainless. I thought the limit was 120 grains but since I never planned to use more than 100 grains, maybe I just overlooked it. I follow up on that later.

I had another fabulous outing with the Apex today. I shot all the way to 140 yards today. I was very impressed it. First thing I did was try 100 yards. The night before I matched my trajectory to the 25 yard and 75 yard POI'susing 1550 fps (50 fps higher than sidekick).I calculated2.2 in low at 100 yards. So lifted the rear sight one grad to zero it. Sure enough the POI's of the final two of three shots were separated by two inches almost the same elevation while the first centered themand landed and 1.25" below. The center of the grouping was 4.5 inches right of bull. Last night they were .5 inches left of bull at 75 yards in pristine range conditions. It was windy (and gusty) so shots wound up stringing in the horizantal axis.

For grins and giggles, I pushed the target back to 140 yards. I had worked out trajectory sheets for each grad. At the top grad, the load should be 1.5 inches low at 140 yards. Sure enough the center of the next five shots was 1.7 inches low of point of aim, but oh my, the wind really screws with group size at that range. Some of the shots were off the target the wind had blown them that far right.

Then I left the sights in the same place and went back to 80 yards. I wanted to see how close the trajectory was in realityto the one I calculated.Looking at the chartI saw the point of impact should be 4.5 in high at 80 yards. I buckled on a new target, which is shown below. I was amazed to find the next two shots precisely 4.5 in. high at 80 yards. I moved the rear sight to where I wanted to leave her. I want 1" low at 100 yards so I put the sight just a little over 1/2 grad higher than last night and shot a 5 shot group on the same target. It was about 3.5 inches wide but only 1.5 inches tall. I'm proud of that, less than 2 MOA in the vertical axis. Most of the horizontal spread was from the wind.

Frontier Gander, you may not know the T/C's that well, but I learned first hand what you meant by getting a gloved finger through the trigger guard. It was chilly today and I was wearing heavy (snow skiing type) gloves. While I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing a gloved finger through with the rifle cocked, it was no problem and completely safe to put the finger through and then cock the rifle. Awesome!

cayugad

that is some real good shooting. Those ball-ets look like they hold real well. Also it's amazing how accurate your sight adjustment is.. That would make a nice open sight shooting rifle for a hunter.. Nice shooting!!

Pglasgow

Thanks Dave. I'm very impressed not only with the Apex, but also the ballets. They are just shooting sweeter than sweet in her. She's sighted in. Below is the trajectory for the load.

frontier gander

Awesome, i cant wait untill i order mine and shoot it. Phil, if you are worried about your bulky gloves, go to walmart and they sell wool mittens and the finger part lets you roll it off your 4 fingers and get a good solid trigger hold. Ive bee wearing those for years now. Whats suprising me is how those ball-ets are shooting, i shot them before and was happy with 2" groups at 100 yards but i was shooting 120 grains pyrodex RS out of the rifle. I like to try different bullets with my standard load that i use with powerbelts. Are you shooting off any type of rest?

Pglasgow

Jon,

I go out to a BLM shooting range. They have big boulders in the parking of each range sight. I got lucky this morning and got one which goes beyond 75 yards. I have a 3' X 8' piece of carpet I drape over a boulder and I sit on the ground in front of it to rest the rifle. I grip the front of the rifle just like I would while shooting off hand.

120 RS, IMHO, is to much powder for the ballet. Knowing you shot open sights, I must tell you, that 2" is a fabulous group at 100 yards and isn't something to be discouraged about.

Regarding the mitts, i was thinking the same but also this. One could wear thin wool or neoprene gloves under the mitts. Keep the hands a little warmer and allow one to slip his trigger finger through with no problems.

Pglasgow

I have confirmed that my manual says the maximum recommended loose powder load is 100 grains of 2f granulation .Oddly, they recommend a 100-130grain load of pellets. So they recommend at least 100 grains of pelletized powder. I'm shooting loose and I won't exceed 100 grains 777 2f. I feel perfectly safe with that, and I don't see anything in the manual which would prohibit that load. I recently purchaseda pound of777 2f powder BTW so I might see how she fires in the Apex soon.

Added:

My sense is that rather than saying the limit of BP is this amount, the limit of Pyro RS this amount, and so on . . . BPI has elected to restrict the total loose amount to the most powerful of the approved loose powders. No matter what you use, no more than 100 grains is the maximum. I can see the wisdom of this approach as there can be no way to overload load the rifle, regardless of powder chosen, if 100 grains is the maximumone loads.

Pglasgow

Dave, its precisely 2 MOA per grad. Everysight has an MOA per grad. Its nice when its a whole number like 2, makes it easy for adjustment. Its a very simple thing once you know what the drop/grad ratio is. The easiest way to find it is to shoot the rifle. I like 25 yards because one can do a considerable change in MOA and still be on target and the sighting MOA is small. First pick a Major Grad low on the ramp, shoot a 3 shot group, Next take a large step up in grads, I did nine when doing the Apex. The larger the step up the more the change in ramp position will swamp sighting error. Just divide the inches separating the centers of the upper and lower groupby the number of grads adjusted.Multiply that by 4 to get inches per grad at 100 yards. This number is roughly the MOA per grad.

Then its just a matterknowing the trajectory. In my case, if I am4" lower than I want to be at 100 yards, just adjust 2 grads. This because the drop from the boreline is the same no matterwhere the boreline is pointed.So need to lift the POI of 4" at100 yards" just lift the borelineso that it intersects100 yards4 inches higher. It's handy stuff.

Wimuzzleman

Pqlasqow looks like you have a great rifle. You are really teasing me with your post. If you keep dangling the hook in front of me I just might bite and get an Apex.

Pglasgow

Chris,

I'm not fishing. Just sharing my Apex experience. I'm also not recommending it or any other rifle. If your only experience so far has been the NEF heritage rifle, you would be amazed with the APEX. Probably any of the other brands (TC, White, Knight) would give you as much satisfaction. The Apex fit my budget and is performingas well with conicals as my Sidekick so the APEX is completely freeing me from everything I disliked about the Sidekick.

If I were to explain why I am so satisfied, I would sum it up with:

Its like a centerfire rifle you load from the muzzle. Totally and completely clean in the breech. 209's slip in and pop out freely (like a cartridge does in an automatic) without handling them. Except for the swabbing, it is totally clean, shot after shot after shot. Just awesome. Anyone who would encourage the purchase of stainless sidekick over a stainless Apex selling for $60 less has either never owned both rifles or is foolish.

If you get one, great, but I will only let you blame me if it gets you out of trouble with your girlfriend . For your next rifle, get what you want, not what someone else wants you to get. You'll be alot happier.