Pglasgow

Did alot of shootingthis morning. Started with some AP 3fjust to see how it clocked. But the shadows were too long and the chrony wouln't pick them up.AP burned very clean, never even swabbed, each shot loading like the last. I had problems with the AP ingniting consistently. Each shot went off, but each sounded a little different, some kinda dud like. Very mild recoil at 70 grains. Oddly, it was the dud like fires which were printing higher, I don't have the answer for that one. All in all, I was very disappointed in the AP. I don't remember Pinnacle firing like this in the hawken and I do understand them to be the same thing.

After a while, I went to 3f Goex. Was my favorite in the past, and now more than ever. All it takes is some time away from blackpowder in order to gain an appreciation of it. The next three shots with the 3f were cloverleafed at 50 yards (with 70 grains and 270 ballet). When shooting BP, I spit patch (and turn over) and do the same routine with a dry patch after the spit patch. I now loaded a 385 GP with 75 grainsand fired. This time the chrony registered at 1304 fps. I begin adjusting sights to the right as I was shooting left of POA. Next 1326 fps, adjusted sight again. Next 1289 ( i didn't swab that one and loaded difficult) Adjusted sight again. Next 2 at 1317 and 1328 both touching at 50 yards. This is by far the tightest velocity distribution I have ever measured, I was very pleased. Also the velocities were consistently higher than those chronied with the 385 and 75 grains Pyro P. Same volume, higher velocity with the BP.

By now it was getting hot and the barrel was warm. Now out of the GP's I started shooting the BB 410s with WW andusing the same 75 grains 3f Goex. The first I loaded had been loaded before (without a charge) and when it fired it went astray, off about 2.5 inches, but the velocity was 1620 fps! I couldn't believe it. Hmmm. So I loaded another. This one landed near the bullseye and clocked 1581 fps! Loaded anotherwhich printed 1/2" away from the prior and clocked 1566 fps! So far the Buffaloes averaged 1589 and 2275 ft.lbs. The GP's? On the same charge, they averaged 1312 fps and 1473 ft lbs.

I wanted to try 75 yards so I move out with a new target. Next shot 1506 fps but an 1 1/2 below the target, next shot 1470 again an 1 1/2 below the target and separated about 1 1/2" from the previous shot. Decided to adjust the sight up. Next shot 1435, and at about POA elevation but 5" left of bullseye, not on target. I spent quite a bit of time lining out the windage earlier so I was disappointed. Moved the target back to 50 yards. Fired the last to primers I had, 1402 and 1391,they were 2" high and left about 3.25" and separated by 1.25". Now I've got to go through Windage all over again. That rear sight is scewed abit.

The velocity of the BB 410's continued to decrease as I shot. The barrel grew pretty dog gone hot and the temp outside was gettingdownright warmas I shot. Just how that played a role, if it actually did,in the 410's velocity falling off, i don't know. What surprised me is the 410's surprising superior velocity to the 385's on the same charge. I have the sense that the 410s are somewhat sloppy in the Sidekick relative to the 385 GPs. This looseness lets the 410's gain tremendous energy and velocity for the charge used. Possiblythe lube on the BBs contributes something too.

I don't know if this is a good thing or not. I have noticed that I shoot tighter with the GP's. The 410'sseem to besloppier on target at 50 yards and as the range is extended, probably will open at a greater rate than the 385's(in my Sidekick). I really wanted to use the BB 410's for hunting the light 75 grain charge. If I go to the GP 410s, I will have to substantially increase charge to keep impact velocities above 1300 fps at 80 yards. Oh well, we'll learn more next time out.

Happy Hunting, Phil

cayugad

excellent report Phil. There is some information in there I can use when trying to figure out some of the conical I have been shooting. One thing I discovered about Pinnacle and APP is, those powders did not like large conicals or large sabots. As long as I kept them under 300 grains, all systems were a go, and accuracy was exceptional. And as you stated, no swabbing. Goex 3f is my all around do everything powder. Granted I have a couple rifles that shoot better with something different, but Goex 3f will normally produce the best overall groups of all powders. I was going to shoot today but it was 102 degrees out. Just walking around outside was not pleasant. Especially when the house was so nice and cool...

Pglasgow

I kinda question just how well fire gets in to ignite the charge in my Sidekick. I even had trouble with the 270's.

I think it takes a fairly heavy charge to getAPP to work right. At low pressures associated with asmall charge (like 50 to 70 grains), i kinda wonder whether its burning the way its designed to. I suspect, though I have no clue, thatit is not. It burns alot like smokeless when you light a little pile of it, and smokeless powders need a minimum pressure to burn as designed, I suspect it is similar. Did you see Elquedello's target using 140 grains of Clean Shot? Very good group, but alot more powder than I care to use. Elquedello eats two or three bowls of wheaties , I eat one if I'm lucky.

My RS is almost gone. I would be willing to trade the APP fora pound3f Swiss, 3fKIK, or 3f Goex Express to anyone who is having good luck with it (I payed $25 for it). When the RS, Pyro, and APP is gone, I'm pretty sure that BP will be all I use from now on. Unless I can't find it locally anymore. Itsdirtier, but it really isn't all that bad, especially in with the stainless barrel of the sidekick. Cleaned up fast when I got her home.

Happy Hunting, Phil

eldeguello

"Oddly, it was the dud like fires which were printing higher, I don't have the answer for that one."

This is not odd at all, IF indeed the "dud-like fires" were going significantly slower than the others. What happens is that the longer barrel time of the slower bullet permits the muzzle to rise more in recoilthan does when the bullettravels faster. Thismakes the slowerbullet hit higher on the target than the faster one, even though its' drop is greater. I have seen this same effect in my old mannlicher-Schoenauer .270 when shooting the old 170-grain Speer round-nose bullets when the gun was zeroed with 130-grain Noslers. The 170 grainers hit about 4" ABOVE the 130 grain bullets at 100 yards. This despite the fact that the 170's were going about 400 FPS SLOWER than the 130's.

This effect is very pronounced in hand guns!

"Did you see Elquedello's target using 140 grains of Clean Shot? Very good group, but alot more powder than I care to use. Elquedello eats two or three bowls of wheaties , I eat one if I'm lucky."

Phil, that 140-grain charge is a lot more than I care to use, as well! That powder was GOEX "ClearShot FFFg", not Cleanshot,the precursor of APP. I had tried ClearShot FFg, and it was abysmally weak!. It gave velocities a full 20% to 30% under what I was getting with other powders using the same volume. I contacted GOEX about that problem, and they said "use the FFFg size, and more of it". So I got someClearShot FFFg, and worked up to the velocity level I had been getting with 120 grains of Pyrodex RS.

It turned out that it took 140 grains of the ClearShot FFFg to get back up to1700 fps with the Maxiball!

BTW, the reason I was fooling around with ClearShot at all is that I had previously discovered that the stuff is indeed "non-corrosive", as I fired an old clunker rifle (.45 cal. Navy Arms Hawken Hurricane) ten times with a load of it, then stood the riofle in a corner for two weeks uncleaned after shooting. This was here in S. PA in hot, humidAugust. It did not hve any rust or corrosion in the bore after two weeks. I concluded that it was indeed noncorrosive powder. Too bad it was so damned weak!

ClearShot is off the market now, but I still have 5 pounds of it (FFFg)in sealed cans - it will be used exclusiely with Maxiballs in that one .50-cal. rifle, with 140-grain charges!

Underclocked

eldeguello, do you notice large water droplets forming in your bore after firing Clear Shot? I was amazed when I looked in my bore after trying some. Dry patches came out soaked. Bought two pounds of the stuff way back when and finally used the last of it this past 4th...but not in a muzzleloader.

Pglasgow

Three holes touching at 100 yards, with iron sights (even with a peep), is remarkable to say the least. Takes perfect aiming and a reliable load. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Happy Hunting, Phil

eldeguello

No, I never noticed this! I will definitely check for this condition the next time I shoot some. I'll dry-patch the bore and see if the patchcomes out wet. Thanks for the tip!

Now, I did notice that APP claims that their powder, which was once "CLEAN SHOT", is "self-lubricating", leaving some kind of a moist deposit in the bore on firing. I used Clean Shot powder back when it was being made, but have not yet tried APP or Pinnacle. I stopped using Clean Shot after I discovered how susceptible it was to moisture in humid condidions.

eldeguello

Thanks, Phil. that group probably was just a fluke! But when I first got that gun (1968), I could shoot 1" five-shot 100 yard groups with it using .500" round balls and 90 grains of DuPont FFg, off a bench of course. And only when the wind was not blowing. But my eyes were a lot better back then!

UncleNorby

Eldeguello explained the higher impact from the "duds" exactly right.

But I didn't see anyone address the higher velocity of the heavier bullets, that you attribute to the sloppy bore fit.

I don't beleive it is the sloppy fit that allows them to gain more velocity. If anything, a sloppier fit would result in less pressure generated, and less velocity. BUT other factors are also at work. Because you did get higher velocity I'm sure the heavier bullets are upsetting properly and sealing the bore, allowing perhaps even a more efficient burn of the charge resulting in higher velocity.

For every barrel/charge/projectile combination, there will an optimal load for velocity and powder burn. You may have hit on it with your load.

Of course, accuracy is another matter, and the highest velocity may not yield best accuracy (I find it usually does not).

Pglasgow

Uncle Norby,

I am using a wad with the flat based BB 410. One thing I noticed is that the velocity keep falling off with the 410's each consecutive shot. First at 1620 and the final at 1391 (a distribution of 229 fps). I'm not sure what to attribute that to, but I suspect that the barrel, in getting hot, expanded enough that each consecutive shot let more breech gas blow by.

The GPs are the only bullet, apart from the BB 270 Ballet, that I have achieved three touching holes at 50 yards, so I think the tight fit of the GP's are a good thing for accuracy, albeit it seems to inhibit muzzle velocity.

Another nice thing about the GP's is that their velocity distribution was very tight, tight at least for what I've been used to. If one throws out the slow one where I did not swab, the distribution only ranges by 24 fps. Weighing charges and a little more care in loading, I could probably narrow that, which would I think, extend my range.

In reading the GP pamphlet, the GP bullets are .509 diameter. My Sidekick is .510. I think the Hawken is .512, which must explain why I don't recall the GP's being so hard to load in my Hawken. I figure that by the time Iget them crowned, the GP's top band is snug with the bore. I do not feel that to be the case with Buffalo Bullets. Seems like B.S.was saying he would swage his Buffalo Bullets in apiece of extra barrel to assist with the bore fit.

I would like to try a 12 shotsample with the 410's allowing ample time for the barrel to cool between shots, just to see if I can tighten its velocity distribution and test four 3-shot groups for accuracy.

Happy Hunting, Phil