AmericanPioneer

Reloading is a science that not all may be inclined to partake in due to it not beingvery forgiving(accidents) in most cases as blackpowder loading might. Ive been doing it since I was17 and Im 39 now. One grain or even two can have devasting effects sometimes on pressure levels unlike blackpowder or substitues.This is why it is always recommended to reduce loads by 10% and work up looking for pressure signs. Sure the cartridges i spoke of are in contained cases but then explain why Savage is able to to produce a smokeless muzzleloader and just about everyone thinks its the best thing since sliced bread. The Encore can chamber anything the Savage cartridge rifles can and do.The Savagemuzzleloader is just a barrel attatched to a receiver with a breech plug in it.There is no locking lugs on the bolt unless they have changed them since the last time I looked at one. What would make it any stronger than a barrel made for smokeless powderfrom rifle grade steel for the Encore. I dont think the breech area of an Encore is going to give way on a blow out.If a company offers an alternative to the traditional blackpowder rifle and you buy it, you assume the responsibility of following their guidelines for their product and putting safety first. They have tested it and have to meet certain guidelines or they couldnt sell it. They arent going to put something out there that is going to mame or kill everyone who uses it.This type of rifle or barrel is not for every tom, dick, or harry out there that may not even have the mental capability of even using a blackpowder rifle with blackpowdermuch less one using smokeless. Alot of the companies dont manufacture them probably because of the uneducated people out there that would buy one and blow themselves up trying to hot rod their loads and using unreccomended powders like I have seen so many blackpowderor substitute users doing in posts. One example is people saying they are using fffg powder in cva rifles. Their manual does not recommend it, nor do they recommend loose charges over 100 grains, yet people do it then wonder what happens when something gives and they get hurt. Stupidity is usually the root of all loading accidents and is no excuse. Dont blame someone else, blame yourself. And by the way you can overload a pistol case and some rifle caseswith a double charge if you are not checking your cases before putting a bullet in them.

Underclocked

It's also interesting the NULA smokeless muzzleloader uses a revamped .22LR action last time I looked.

AmericanPioneer

I checked out the Bad Bull muzzleloader site and the recommendedlow charge for their smokeless muzzleloader is 100 grs of IMR 4350 and the max 140 grs with a 300 grain .45 bullet but no more than 4 pellets max like 777 or pyrodex. Holy ****!!!!!Thatseems weird about the max blackpowder charge. Here is a link.
http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com/html/faq.html

Pglasgow

I swear you don't listen. Being safer with a slower burning powder is NOT loading up on it until your pressure peak is the maximum allowed in the rifle. Its having less peak pressure, the same or less energy in the breech, and reduced performance at the muzzle relative to the loads of the faster powders. Packing almost twice the powder because it burnsslowerisn't being safer and is not anywhere as safe as Savage approved loads. Honestly, I think if you would just read the comments you wouldn't find it all that hard to understand and agree.

Regarding there being a bunch of new loads approved by Savage. I will be more than happy to acknowledge them. All Savage has to do is publish them in a public way or maybe you could reference a Savage publication where these new "SMI-like loads" can be found.

I just want you to explain to me why 3500 ft-lb or3900+ ft-lb (UC's mysterious 3000 fps 200 grain projectile) is needed at all in a 50 cal muzzleloader.Sorry, but I just don't buy the "perfectly safe" hypothesis.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Underclocked

Those loads were not suggested by me. I am merely quoting words from Savage owners and owners of SMI barreled rifles. I've zero experience with smokeless in a muzzleloader and fully intend to keep it that way. But I do find the evolution and development of loads on the smokeless side worthy of attention.

"(UC's mysterious 3000 fps 200 grain projectile)" is neither mine nor a mystery but a load and performance suggested very seriously by a smokeless owner. Another says,"I was shooting my favorite load: 76 gr H4198 - 250 Barnes TMZ. The gun was extremely clean and I did not fire a fouling shot. Temps were in the mid 70's and I used a chronograph. At 100 yds my 3 shot group was 1 1/8 inches with a velocity of 2,698 ave.."

Those are things being done and attempted doneby owners of smokeless muzzleloaders, not by me. No, I do not recommend or encourage the use of ANY load in a smokeless muzzleloader. They are still beyond my personal envelope of what is acceptable to use in a muzzleloader hunting season. The fact is theyCAN exceed the performance of many centerfire rounds and I just don't see how that fits in any way (aside from being legal to usein some places).... at least not on my shoulder.

If someone else chooses smokeless, that is their choice. AndI'll have nothing to say against their using such a rifle so long as it's legal. But it isn't for me.

Pglasgow

Forgiveme, UC. It was not, unfortunately, obvious from what you had written that it was some one else speculating about 3000 fps. I mistakenly took you to say that if the following were true, then 3000 fps was achievable. Evidently, you were quoting someone else.

". . . 67 grains of IMR 4198 with .75" to 1.3" accuracy. ..don't have a chronograph yet, but by the results had by others, that should put me around 2450-2500 fps with a 250 grain bullet."

I said something, because when I calculated the energy, the 200 grain projectile at 3000 fps had 500 ft-lbs more energy than a 250 grain projectile at 2500 fps. Now it seems that actual velocity of the 250 grain bullet is 2698 ave. or over 4000 ft-lbs. MY GOD!

Some time ago, I looked into the Savage. I noticed right off that there were no recommended loads over 46 grains. I figured that Savage only wants less than 46 grains in the muzzleloader in the event an obstruction occurs. The faster powders contain roughly the same energy as the slower powderson a per weight basis which means that in the event of an obstruction, charge of either powder of equal weight represent roughly an equal potential forreleased energy and thus roughly an equalrisk to operator of the weapon.But when one pumps up the weight of slower powders his risk increases in the event of an obstruction.

Frankly, I guess its none of my business what others are putting in their Savage. SoI guess if someone is willing to live with the risks they are taking when using their 10ML outside the manufacture'srecommendations, its none of my business. Where I take issue, is when that same person can't resist the urge of sharing hisactions with others, spreading the behavior around so to speak.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Wolfhound76

Are you under the impression that I own either a Savage or SMI? I ownno smokeless muzzleloaderbut I will be buying one sooner or later.

Pglasgow

I'm clairovoyant. I knew you were coming to comment on this before you even arrived. Don't ask how. I just somehow knew. By the way. Good to see you, its been a while.

I'm not under the impression you own either. But I do have the impression that you are knowledgeable "enough"about the Savage to know that SMI's loads are not approved in the 10 ML. I was discussing the appropriatenessof 65 grain (4000+ ft lbs. it turns out) loads in the 10MLwhen you made the "perfectly safe" comment and gaveus the SMI link to emphasize your point. I don't feel up to arguing any longer about it really,I'm not enjoyingthat aspect of this thread.

Happy Hunting, Phil

lemoyne

I wonder if some of these people realize that with out the cartridge case you don't have the warning signs that we reloaders use to know when to back off. That is the reason I will not use smokeless in a muzzle loader it has nothing to do with weather it is smokeless or not it is the pressure regulate type of burning which reduces your safty factor. Lee

Pglasgow

Lee,

It occurs to me that the Toby fella may have been getting signs he was pushing his Savage too hard. Seems he was complaining about erosion of the breech plug long before he blew up his Savage.

There seems to be a myth that the 10 ML is safest, most tested smokeless rifle out there. I figure that it probably is the most tested. But "more" testing doesn't make the 10ML "more"safer . It merely reassures us that its safe enough to do safelywhat Savage says it will do safely.

Happy Hunting, Phil