Pglasgow

From the mouths of babes? Newbie you may be, but there is alot of wisdom in this.

If you buy a Savage, know its built to safely shoot less than 46 grains of smokeless powder. Don't put more than that in it and if you want all that testing to mean something, follow Savage's recommendation to a tee.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Wolfhound76

What do you think an Encore is? Last I checked most of the barrels available are for smokeless powder, you just load em with a cartridge. The SMI barrel is another smokeless barrel option, just one not made by the gun maker.

The rest of this isn't directed at you, it's just easier than making 2 posts.


From the SMI website:
If true, and I have no reason to believe it isn't, SMI has been making since before Tony Knight "reinvented" the inline muzzleloader and far longer than Savage has been making muzzleloaders. They've just not been noticed much until lately.

As far asI knowthere are 5 types of muzzleloaders capable of shooting smokeless powders. Savage 10 ML I+II, SMI Barrel options for the NEF, H+R (and others), NULA 209 (the ones designated for smokeless), the Bad Bull ML (don't know much about this one), and Customs designated for smokeless such as the ones made by Bill & Henry Ball. This list will probably continue to grow.

Someone brought up safety of Smokeless in ML's. They are perfectly safe when used following approved loads. SMI has a page of loads ( http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/loadingchart.html) and Savage hasloads listed in their manual. It's not that much different than reloading cartridges except there's no cartridge. Just as much care need to be excercised reloading as muzzleloading. In fact one fellow I know is fond of saying that "if you are a muzzleloader, you are a reloader".

Underclocked

http://www.swinglock.net/advantages.htm

Wolfhound76

Your right, I had forgotten that one.[&o]

Youd a thought I would have remembered since they have such sexy stocks.

http://www.swinglock.net/CamoGun.jpg

Pglasgow

Here's how its different.

1. It is impossible to double load a cartridge

2. It is impossible to load two projectiles in a single cartridge

3.It is impossible to load two cartridges in cartridge rifle.


I think any reasonable person will agree that its significantly different with muzzleloader, even while, the processisin principlethe same.

I would note that the SMI's recommendations are for SMI's barrels and I wouldn't think that they are approved for use in the 10ML by Savage. It is clear to me that Savage doesn't want over 46 grains of smokeless in their muzzleloaders, period. Or they would recommend more. The limit is 46 grains, and the powders recommended are meant to peak the pressure at the desired pressure of operation.

If Savage thinks that 65 grains of smokeless powder issomething they cannot recommend in their rifles, then I trust that. You can say its safe all you want and so can SMI. I'll put my faith in Savage. If anyone accidently double loads72 grains of 2015and wrecks their face (did that happen to Toby?) feel free to list Wolfhound as defendant in your lawsuit against SMI.

The only point I made is that smokeless could be used as a safer alternative to Black powder with one caveat, the performance would not be significantly greater if safety was the primary objective. Oh yeah, and that 67 grains is too much powder to be used in a Savageand that one isn't going to propell a 200 grain bullet to 3000 fps without using alot more powder than 67 grains.

Now I am making the point that reloading a cartridge isn't the same as reloading a muzzleloader from the safety perspective.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Triple Se7en

All those big boresyou mentioned are contained powder loads encased in a cartridge. When I speak about liabilities, I'm entertaining the thoughts of shooter/loader errors when loading smokeless powder in an uncased barrel -- such as the most common mistake -- that being double-loading of either the powder or bullet. When barrel blow-ups occur, the shooter will generally deny double-loading & proof that he/she did is sometimes never found. That's why the liability issue is a big concern to any ML company.

H & R has been in the same barrel-swapping game much longer. Have they ever introduced smokeless ML barrels in their interchangeable system??? If not, then something is going on that's either stopping this option - or delaying it. When this happens, it's mostly insurance-related versus poor product development.

Underclocked

"1. It is impossible to double load a cartridge" not true for reloaders. Double charges happen even inside cases.

Pglasgow

Then the powder choice isnotappropriate if safety is your primary objective. I would bet that you can't find a single recommendation at Hodgdon's website where a double charge of powder will fit in the case.Helpurself.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Triple Se7en

Generally-speaking, when a centerfire barrel ruptures, the first finger-pointing is at the reloader.

When muzzleloaders rupture, the first finger-pointing accusation is at the manufacturer.

Why that is? -- I have no idea .. other than the centerfire has morecomponent strength governorslike S.A.A.M.I..

Wolfhound76

I'm not the one who ok'd the loads, SMI did. Send your complaints to them. And you may have noticed that the powders SMI lists are slower burning powders than the ones Savage lists. Here's a list compiled by Savage shooters: http://www.sav10ml.com/pages/load_data/table1.htm
Seems someSavage shooters use 72 gr of 2015 and a 300 gr bullet to boot.They're not factory loads but there are apparently more loads suitable for the Savage 10ML than the factory lists. Of course using them your on your own, but other than Toby's incident all the cases of damagedSavages I've heard of are ringed barrels. This has included double loads and shooting ramrods out of their guns. Makes you wonder exactly what he did.

It's also interesting to note that the loads listed in the current manual aren't the only Savage approved loads. The recently redid the manual and the loads that were in the older manuals are still approved per contact with Savage. This includes the ones for the old 10 ML I manuals.