What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
05-31-2006, 10:16 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cashmere, WA
Posts: 157
What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
Hi Guys,
If my White Ultra Mag purchase falls though, I'm wondering about the Spanish barrel history and more important - how are they functioning now? A mid level Knight with the famed Green Valley barrel is a contender.On the upper end for me is an A&H 420 with monte carlo style stock - they sure look great! But the Spanish barrel hype (mostly from one source "Randy" something -don't recall his full name) has me more than a bit concerned.
Given the wealth of data that suggests we don't need to push ML loads much more than 100gr of powder, how relevant is the concern of current Spanish barrel manufacturing?
As always, thanks so much!
phil
If my White Ultra Mag purchase falls though, I'm wondering about the Spanish barrel history and more important - how are they functioning now? A mid level Knight with the famed Green Valley barrel is a contender.On the upper end for me is an A&H 420 with monte carlo style stock - they sure look great! But the Spanish barrel hype (mostly from one source "Randy" something -don't recall his full name) has me more than a bit concerned.
Given the wealth of data that suggests we don't need to push ML loads much more than 100gr of powder, how relevant is the concern of current Spanish barrel manufacturing?
As always, thanks so much!
phil
05-31-2006, 10:45 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
philnie
There are 10,000 stories about Spanish Barrels. The rub centers around the proofing markings on the barrel, which are low... Spain has a law that all barrels made in Spian must be proofed in Spain by the House of Elbar, a case of a country protecting a businessinside their borders. The barrels imported in to the states a proofed at the minimum required to get them out of Spain. Remember there are only two proofing houses in Europe - one in Spain one in England and ironically there are no proof houses in the US or Canada. I can not even speculate how many of these barrels are in the states and being used every day.
Most of the controversy started over Spanish barrels is being generated by Randy Wakeman. He really is the crusader and he definitely believes what he says. Both Traditions and CVA have refused to tell him if they have conducted additional tests here to verify the barrels, and in actuality they probably haven't... they are distributors - the testing has been done in Spain by the manufacturer... On the other hand Austin&Halleck have conduted tests stateside and have proven to Randy's satisfaction they are safe, my satisfaction also I have a 320 that shoots great.
The real thing is as it should be with any muzzleloader - follow the directions in the manual. Not all muzzleloaders are built the same - I think you can see that in the prices being charged.
I also believe if you get a knight or TC of some variety you would be in great shape... The only problem there is finding one that will qualify for Washington, either the Bighorn or the Black Diamond - they are OK but nothing to jump for. NEF is another American provider but they really justtrying to stayalive in a very competitive market. I do not like the looks of the NEF or the fact that it still uses deep grooves in the riflings. Lots of people like them and a lot of people have had problems getting them to perform consistently...
Good luck - get a White if you can for Washington.
There are 10,000 stories about Spanish Barrels. The rub centers around the proofing markings on the barrel, which are low... Spain has a law that all barrels made in Spian must be proofed in Spain by the House of Elbar, a case of a country protecting a businessinside their borders. The barrels imported in to the states a proofed at the minimum required to get them out of Spain. Remember there are only two proofing houses in Europe - one in Spain one in England and ironically there are no proof houses in the US or Canada. I can not even speculate how many of these barrels are in the states and being used every day.
Most of the controversy started over Spanish barrels is being generated by Randy Wakeman. He really is the crusader and he definitely believes what he says. Both Traditions and CVA have refused to tell him if they have conducted additional tests here to verify the barrels, and in actuality they probably haven't... they are distributors - the testing has been done in Spain by the manufacturer... On the other hand Austin&Halleck have conduted tests stateside and have proven to Randy's satisfaction they are safe, my satisfaction also I have a 320 that shoots great.
The real thing is as it should be with any muzzleloader - follow the directions in the manual. Not all muzzleloaders are built the same - I think you can see that in the prices being charged.
I also believe if you get a knight or TC of some variety you would be in great shape... The only problem there is finding one that will qualify for Washington, either the Bighorn or the Black Diamond - they are OK but nothing to jump for. NEF is another American provider but they really justtrying to stayalive in a very competitive market. I do not like the looks of the NEF or the fact that it still uses deep grooves in the riflings. Lots of people like them and a lot of people have had problems getting them to perform consistently...
Good luck - get a White if you can for Washington.
05-31-2006, 10:47 PM
#3
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
If your asking are the Spanish made barrels safe? Well you can get both answers. I think a lot of it has to do with how you feel about their testing procedures. I own one and have for years. I shoot it, it shoots great. I never go over 100 grains of powder. Would I recommend one? I think for a few dollars more, there are much better rifles that do not have issues with them. Only you can decide.
06-01-2006, 12:28 AM
#4
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cashmere, WA
Posts: 157
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
Fantastic info sabotloader, thanks much! It's clear my newbie undies are showing here.I don't have a clue about barrel testing processes nor the politics around same. As is often the case, buying the max bang for the buck is part art and part science. I sincerely thank you and others on this forum for the very valuable 'real world' information!
Ditto cayugad- given all I know now, my personal wiring tells me to spend cash elsewhere ... I know a quality reputation is job one!
You both need to understand if you continue to provide great information I'm going to continue with even more questions!
thanks!
phil
Ditto cayugad- given all I know now, my personal wiring tells me to spend cash elsewhere ... I know a quality reputation is job one!
You both need to understand if you continue to provide great information I'm going to continue with even more questions!
thanks!
phil
06-01-2006, 02:50 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
Based on my own testing of what some would call a "piece of crap" CVA Bobcat, I would have to say that while its true that spending more money gets you a fancier/better fit and finish gun than the typical lower priced guns, it doesn't mean that, when used within the manufacturers recomended limits, the lower priced guns are dangerous.
I got tired of seeing the company bashing and bad mouthing that some in the ML'er community were doing. Guys like RW could have done their own testing or had it done for them. They seem to be more interested in stiring things up instead of nailing them down. Since I have several CVA rifles, I decided to do some testing on my own, if for no other reason than to satisfy myself as to the safety factor built into what I was putting up to my face.
After multiple test/proof loads that far exceed anything the manufacturer recomends, the Bobcat showed no measurable changes and is virtually the same as before the test.
You need to be happy with whatever you choose but I would not worry about the safety of the spanish made guns. The quality and appearance may not be the best in some lines but the quality ofmy$35 gun'sbarrel held up well in my testing.
Good luck in your hunt for a ML'er.
I got tired of seeing the company bashing and bad mouthing that some in the ML'er community were doing. Guys like RW could have done their own testing or had it done for them. They seem to be more interested in stiring things up instead of nailing them down. Since I have several CVA rifles, I decided to do some testing on my own, if for no other reason than to satisfy myself as to the safety factor built into what I was putting up to my face.
After multiple test/proof loads that far exceed anything the manufacturer recomends, the Bobcat showed no measurable changes and is virtually the same as before the test.
You need to be happy with whatever you choose but I would not worry about the safety of the spanish made guns. The quality and appearance may not be the best in some lines but the quality ofmy$35 gun'sbarrel held up well in my testing.
Good luck in your hunt for a ML'er.
06-01-2006, 02:26 PM
#7
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
I think too many people make way too much about shooting magnum loads. I have six fast twist magnum rifles. I do not shoot a magnum load out of any of them. The most I push is the Knight and Black Diamond once in a while to 120 grains of loose powder.
If people follow the guidelines of the powder manufacturer (which by the way do not recommend 150 grains of their powder in most cases) and the rifle manufacturers, and use some common sense, I think they are taking the biggest step to being safe with what ever rifle they choose. All of it is a matter of how you view the arguments of the Spanish Barrel issue.
If people follow the guidelines of the powder manufacturer (which by the way do not recommend 150 grains of their powder in most cases) and the rifle manufacturers, and use some common sense, I think they are taking the biggest step to being safe with what ever rifle they choose. All of it is a matter of how you view the arguments of the Spanish Barrel issue.
06-01-2006, 04:08 PM
#8
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 828
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
Some here are equating accuracy with safety. The issue here is whether a CVA or Traditions are safe to be shot at pressures nearly 3X to what the barrel is proofed. Does not matter if the gun can or cannot hit the broad side of a barn. If CVA/Traditions would actually test the barrels they're selling to prove they're safe, it would end the controversy.
06-01-2006, 04:12 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
Doegirl75
They don't (CVA-Traditions)but the manufacturer does only he does it in Spain which does not satisfy Randy.
I know that you had a bad expewriance with one but for you bad experiance there are 100 good shooters out there - I have three of them...
They don't (CVA-Traditions)but the manufacturer does only he does it in Spain which does not satisfy Randy.
I know that you had a bad expewriance with one but for you bad experiance there are 100 good shooters out there - I have three of them...
06-01-2006, 04:29 PM
#10
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 828
RE: What's the story w/ Spanish Barrels?
Sabotloader-Again, this issue is not whether or not they shoot accurately. It's safety. I know there are many, many satisfied CVA/Traditions shooters. But I do see Randy's arguement, and think it is a fair one. I did buy the CVA in spite of reading Randy's articles criticizing BPI. It just so happened I got a lemon. I do not equate my bad experience from one gun with the perceived "safety" issues of the entire CVA line. I just think it would be smart on CVA's part to answer the charge, that's all.