Pglasgow

Hey Mike,

Who is Toby Bridges?

Happy Hunting, Phil

sabotloader

Pglasgow

Toby Bridges was the leading spokesman for Savage for several years. He hasa web site High Performance Muzzleloading. He is the person that was shooting the Savage that blew up. Then general accepted thought by Savage and their supporters is that Toby did the deed on purpose, caused the blow up by obstructing the barrel. He was complaining about the design of the new Savage breech plug and again the belief is that he was trying to force Savage to change the design maybe back to the original Henry Ball design.

I really do not know what is the truth, what Toby says or what the company says. The best part is it really does not matter to me because I do not own a Savage ML and if I did I wouldn't be shooting smokeless anyway.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/

Hope this helps...

If you are really bored here is some interesting reading....

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=84969

AmericanPioneer

I too think alot of people out there tend to disreguard the proper procedures for using a black powder rifle. Manuals are provided with rifles for a reason. I guess some people dont think its necessary to read them. I saw a guy beating the ramrod of his rifle against the range pole trying to push a sabot down the barrel. I asked him how many times he had shot it and he said twelve and that was without cleaning at all. Theres an accident waiting to happen. Would that be the companies fault? I dont think so.Even If they do read the manual, there is still a time when some peoplefeel they must experiment with something along the way,not knowing what the outcome may be. This is where I think most accidents happen. Ive noticed posts on herewhere people using rifles that specify not to use FFFg powders where using them and the manuals do not list them as safe to use.
Im sure there are incidents involving alot of the brands out there but all are not heard of. Alot of settlements from Big companies involve paperwork that require the injured not to speak of the facts of the case to anyone(confidentiality clause). Money will make anything go away.If the consumer could access the cases and files of the major manufacturers in ledigation for consumer injury due to product failure, he might get some big surprises. I dont think the Spain made rifles would be in a class by themselves. I cant understand why someone would trust an Austin & Halleck and speak highly of them but not a Traditions or CVA. I had one and it was made in Spain and the only difference I saw was the difference in price and some cosmetic features. I read the instructions and feel if I do something wrong it is my fault. IfI followed what the manual said and an incident occurs then it is the company who made the rifles faultor there may be a problem with the brand of propellent. Maybe some of the accidents with foreign guns were operator error and we allow this to affect what we buy in the future. Maybe some companies are better covering up accidents of poor quality or stupdity of the operatorthan others. We should think on that for awhile. Ever heard the saying "what you dont know wont hurt you".

Pglasgow

Thanks Mike,

You jogged my memory. I've spent alot of time at hpmuzzleloading.com, i just could notplace his name. To be honest, I feel that the savage blow-up couldn't possibly result from a leaky breech plug. When I read his report, i immediately questioned the authenticity. But like you said, "who knows?"

Happy Hunting, Phil

Pglasgow

About whether one would deliberately obstruct a barrel and put it to his shoulder to discharge it . . .

I am reminded of when my Dad, who owned a .45 over/under muzzleloader got a ball stuck half way down one of the barrels. He was, at the time clueless as to how to get it out. Finally, after some thought, he decided to attempt to discharge it.

HE DID NOT SHOULDER THE WEAPON.

He took the gun to our back yard range. He propped it so that it would discharge into the backstop and then sand-bagged it in. Using 20 some odd feet of wire, laying on his stomach, he pulled and the gun discharged.
I can't rememberif the ball came out the barrel. What I do remember, is that the partthe nipple attaches to, (it screwed in from the side), was blown clean off the barrel, and to this day, the over/under is a single shot.

Afterwards,he purchased a worm to retreive stuck projectiles, but I don't think he ever needed it.

I just wanted to make the point, that if Toby wanted to blow up hisSavage, it isn't a necessary requirement to shoulder the weapon in order to discharge it.

Happy Hunting, Phil

sabotloader

Pglasgow

Agreed but form his dicussion and the picture of the side of his face I would say he was cuddled up on the stock - but then again he could have faked the condition of the side of his face also...

lemoyne

He has help me personally a couple of time,and I believe him. If you don't then the records of the trip to the hospital and the records they are required to keep over any incident involving a gun should be a matter of record; medical people are very carful about such things. Lee

Pglasgow

Oh . . . I don't think I'd go as far as to suspect him of that, not that it is out of the realm of possibility.

I have yet to figure out why Savage Armshas approved such fast powders for their muzzleloader. It seems to me, that slow powders designed for use in big bores would be better and safer too. Actually, I have figured it out. Everyone wants their muzzleloader to be a 250 yard flat shooter just like a high powered rifle. Fast Powders accomodate that. The pricethough beingmuch higher pressures.

With all this talk about the Savage withstanding tests to 150,000 psi, I could definitely see someone likeToby loading his Savage to pressures of 60,000+ psi in an attempt to get 2800 fps 300 grainprojectiles.Its the kind of thing an envelope pusher might do, justifying it by naively supposing the gun is good to 150,000 psi.

I am an engineer.And I would like to say that a Savage 10 MLwhich weathers a 60,000 psi load once, twice, or even a dozen times, may notdosomuch longer.There is such a phenomenon known as fatigue. Whenmetal isstressed repeatedat high ratios ofits elasticity, it hasashorter useful life. Themetal becomes brittle anddevelops microscopic fractures. Eventually, it will fail.Even a .50 BMGis designed to operate around 50,000 psi. A Savage may be the safest muzzleloader made, but it can be unsafe is used unwisely.

Happy Hunting, Phil

Pglasgow

Let me clarify. I am not a practicing engineer. I have bachelor's degree in petroleum engineering and did practice in the past.

Happy Hunting, Phil