ford351win

I am new to this forum, and to muzzle loading in general but not hunting. Dad, who is a Disabled America Veteran, introduced me to it when I was young . I pray I can be half the man he is when my time comes, and with his guidance I know I will be. I have been lurking on this message board for some time. cayugad, SabotLoader, and others have been so helpful. This group convinced me that I was capable of learning this sport. For that I will always be grateful you guys have given me the confidence to learn a skill that will be with me forever. Hopefully, in time I will be able to return the favor to someone else, that is the only way to keep hunting alive.

I have read about the barrel proofing issue associated with CVA and other BPI guns. I own a CVA Kodiak 209. It is a good gun, but I don’t think I will purchase another one due to the pressure issue. The marginally lower price is not worth the question in the back of my mind when I pull the trigger. Omegas are not that much more expensive and are a far better gun, live and learn I guess. Now I can’t even claim that CVA is a lower priced gun, some of the prices I have seen quoted on Omegas is about half what I gave for my CVA. I am a graduate student studying business and computer science, I did not practice what I preach in being a good consumer and now I am paying the price for that now.

The question I have relates to safe powder charges. (1) I have read that Pyrodex pellets and Triple 7 pellets are equalized to one another in terms of pressures. I assume they vary the amount of actual propellant in the pellet to achieve this result. Please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption[/b]. (2)The second part of this question is when I read my manual it only talks about Pyrodex pellets not Triple 7 pellets. My gun is rated for 150 grain pellet loads. Is a 3 50 grain pellet (150 grains total) of Triple 7 valid or is this only for Pyrodex pellets? The forum has made me understand I might not want to use a magnum charge, I do so now just because I dropped in 3 50 grain Triple 7 pellets and 223 grain Power Belt bullet and got 1.5 inch groups or so at 100 yards totally off hand (no sticks, no bench nothing) with a scope after I found zero.

Now that deer season is over I want to work up some better loads for my gun. I want to try other projectiles and powder charges but would like to continue to use Triple 7 pellets.

I have some questions as to the effectiveness of Power Belt Bullets. I feel I owe the deer more than “I think this will work”. I owe the deer a quick kill. The only way I know to do this is to shoot until I get the optimal powder and projectile combination. The worst feeling I have ever had hunting is this year when I hit a deer with my 30-06 and it ran away into a solid wall of vegetation. My father and I looked for it for a total of 12 hours through the night and the next day with no luck. We found the deer the next week when the buzzards got to it. All I could think was what a waste of a magnificent animal when I got to it. He was less than 20 yards away from where I shot him but in very thick cover we just could not see him. The only comfort I had was I got a double lung shot and I am confident he did not suffer. If I could not look the animal in the eye and say I did my best I would not be able to shake the feeling of guilt. I makes me sick to here guys casually talk about loosing animals, guys like that need to grow up before they take to the deer woods next year. If I ever get to that point it will be time for me to quit

ahankster

Ok,
Easy questions first.
Two pellets of 777 is the same as two pellets of pyrodex. Simple, they are measured by volume, not weight and are the same "power".
100 GRAINS of loose 777 is 15% or so MORE powerfull than pyrodex.

Powerbelts have some very strong supporters and some that do not support them. Personally, I do not. I think if you do a search of the forum you will probably find enuff info on both sides to make a pretty well informed decision. There are many options out there, people tend to just start with what is easy and is packaged pretty and want to stick with it. I think you will find general agreement, even from the people that are sold on them, that power belts and magnum powder charges tend to not work out as well. Especially the lighter, 295 grain and less, bullets.

Sounds like youhave a very sound approach. After the first year, my guess would be that you will probably switch to loose powder. All things being equal, it tends to be more accurate.

Good luck w/ your hunting.
R
Hank

sabotloader

ford351win
First of all love the handle - the 351Windsor was a great one... although I was stuck on the Cleveland, I thought it could breath better. Gee Whiz! how times change things... 289 312 big block 460

Thoughts on your questions...

T7 pellets are at or near the equivelent of BP or Pyro. The t7 pellets do weigh less than an equal amount of t7 loose powder.

When the manual was written Pyro was the standard and T7 was not available in pellets. I own a CVA FireBolt with the same type of rating. Without going to the CVA web site, I can quote the manual it is on the web site. But because the 50 grain t7 seven pellets have been reduced to match Pyro and BP - CVA does now OK 150 grains of PELLETS - not loose the FireBolt max is 100 grains of t7-2f loose.

I need to tell you right off the bat that I am not a PowerBelt fan so take everything I say with a grain of salt. + I am an old hunter set in traditions given to me, my wife says I am stubborn. My first thought is that a 223 grain PowerBelt is kinda light for a PB into big game. I would think that the 295 would be a better choice.

IMO there are a lot of better projectiles out there, the key is to find one that your gun likes and a if you use sabots a sabot that will go down your barrel with enough ease that it makes it practicle to use during the hunt.

I really believe the 240/250/260 grain bullet in a 50 cal ML gives you a VERY wide range of capabilities - I know the fad right now is the 200 grain, but I am still stuck on the 240/260 grain it gives you a much wider room for error and still harvest and animal quickly. If you hunt in the wide open spaces the 200 might be the better, but if you are hunting in the bush and/or timber go with the 240/260.

I am cheap - I prefer to purchase bulk bullets and match the sabot to the bullet and the barrel. There are a ton of high dollar bullets out there but I would be willing to be bet the Hornady 240 has taken more deer than any of the others.

If you have been following along I have really got hooked on the Speer Gold Dot offerings - I wish I could tell you I had havested and deer or even an elk with one of these bullets and the performance was great, but right now all I can say is they punch paper extremly well.

One final thought match your bullet to the ranges that you might be shooting. I really think this is a key, for me hunting the timber the 250/260 grain HP will do and has done really well.

Good luck in your search for the good load....

cayugad

ford351win - first off welcome to the forum. I hope the information you are finding here is helpful.

You could e-mail CVA and ask them outright if three pellets of triple se7en is acceptable. This would give you peace of mind perhaps too.

With the kind of accuracy you are having I can understand why you want to use that kind of powder charge. I have never had the pleasure to shoot a deer yet with a powerbelt. Not because I have not tried, just the deer refuse to cooperate.

In my CVA I limit the rifle to 100 grains of Goex. I feel safe with this kind of charge. Perhaps I should say I hope I am safe with this kind of charge. Also I have found my Staghorn shoots Shockwaves and XTP's very well. If your shots are under 100 yards for the most part, both of those bullets would do a good job for you if they shoot accurate out of your rifle. Also they are more cost effective. As sabotloader pointed out, buying in bulk can save you lots of money.


Guys: back when gasoline was .22 cents a gallon, muscle cars were a real passion of mine too. Again, welcome to the forum.

ford351win

My shots will be less than 200 yards, I draw the line there and would have to have just the right conditions to take such a shot. With my 30-06 I will only shoot 250-300 yards even though I am able to hit with that gun at much further ranges. In reality, with a muzzleloader my shots will be well under 100 yards on the small SC deer I hunt. I only hunt deer at this point.

The only time I will take the CVA out is during the 1 week season and in a dense forest that was just opened up this year to primitive weapons only. In both places shots will be between five and fifty yards.

In any event I wanted to try all possible combinations of 50 and 30 grain pellets until I find the one that works the best for me. When I work up the nerve to try loose powder I will do much the same thing until I find the charge that work the best.

I will change bullets, when I went to the sporting goods store in my home town they had 3 boxes of bullets, TC shockwaves in 300 grain, the 223 Power Belts I decided on only because it was what was recommended in the owners manual(what a great marketing plan BPI has), and some Great Planes Conicals. They did have some round balls too but no patches or lube. I was wise enough to go online and find a copy of the owner’s manual for the gun I was about to purchase. The book limited sabots to 300 grains so the shockwaves were at the max. The book strongly recommended I purchase the Power Belt offering so I did. My thinking was that my center fire only uses 165 grain 30 caliber bullets so this looked reasonable.

I wanted to try:
Dead Center in 240,260 or 300 grains
Shockwave sabots in 250 or 300 grain
Hornaday SST in 250 or 300 grain
The Speer Gold Dot offerings as suggested in a post
Any others please; shooting is fun and one of the best stress reliever I can think of

I will not be able to do much shooting any time soon, I just had to choose between tuition and books or powder and bullets. Tough choice, books are big and boring and bullets are small and sexy, but my decision will pay off soon so I can shoot more and work on my 65 Fastback Mustang(which has a 351 Windsor, hence the handle).

cayugad

They look like all good choices. My Staghorn really does well with 240 grain T/C Mag Express XTP's which I have heard are excellent deer projectiles.

WhereI live most my shots are under 100 yards and usually under 50 yards actually. Scopes are not allowed on our muzzleloaders during our muzzleloader season. Although I use my scoped muzzleloaders during our modern season.

Underclocked

I would also suggest there are two sets of limits for the loads you reference: one from the rifle manufacturer that is "questionable" at best, and one from the powder manufacturer at http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/pellets/50powerbelt.php. I don't believe you will see a load listed on that Hodgdon page that exceeds 2 50 grain equivalent pellets. You will see some text at the top of the page that reads "NEVER Exceed the Loads Listed Here" and I would suggest you take that to heart. Two pellets of T7 should provide more than enough power to take any game you might encounter at the ranges you suggest. Even 200 yard shots if you are VERY well practiced at that range and very selective about such shots.

The word "magnum" means absolutely nothing so far as I can tell in its application to muzzleloaders. Take nothing for granted,the very rifle model you own is at the center of what may become (deservedly) a VERY large lawsuit. Not trying to be a rumor monger or teaser here, but I can say no more on that subject.

I would suggest the use of loose powder at no more than 100 grains by volume of any powder (85 of T7) and a bit heavier projectiles. If it has to be the pellets, then 2 50 grainers as max.

AQUATECH

First let me welcome you to the forum. Secondly I can
assure you, that there is a wealth of information, to
be found here. I have been given some terrific, info
and some how to that you just can't find anywhere
else. And I might add a nice bunch of "friends".
That being said I come from the day when I had a
1965 black GTO 400 HO 3-duces factory hurst 4-speed.
That I traded for a purple "Hemi" Cuda. Oh well
dad called me a lot of things............come to think of
it.........Smart never was one of the things.
Again welcome.

ford351win

Thinks for the great advice, I have got a good game plan for what to do. I will most likely change to loose powder and work up loads and hunt with(note to self, 85 grains by volume is my max for T7 loose). If I decide to use pellets I will drop the magnum charges as they don’t actually buy anything. A 2 50 grain pellet charge seems to be enough to take down any animal I want to hunt. I will compile a list of the projectiles listed in the post and others to find one that will do the job for me.

I know what to do it is just finding the time and money to do it. So far as I can tell between now and mid summer I have two master theses to prepare, one for my MBA and one for my masters program in computer science. That will take up my time. The books will take my money, the cost of university text books is out of control. If any of you have children in school or about to be don’t underestimate that cost.

Thank you for all the help, this is the best forum on the Internet bar none for black powder information. This is one of the best forums period, you guys find a way to provide quality information in a non judgmental and non intimidating way. Don’t ever stop in that.