A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
01-11-2006, 01:40 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Below is a clip I posted in another thread using a whole different topic. I thought it pertinent to repost with a thread title .
A note of caution. I compared their (Magkor's)45-70 load with other loads at hodgdon's website. I was amazed to find that BM3 is producing results I thought were comparable to Varget. For example, 50 grains (by weight)Varget propelled a 405 grain bullet to 1718 fps at CUP 20,900 and energy of 2630 ft-lbs. 65 grains of BM3 (by weight) propells a 435 grain bullet to 1864 fps and energy of 3325 ft-lbs. The BM3 load has 26% more energy using 30% more powder. These two powders are similar in their performance, not exact mind you, but Magkor doesn't publish pressures and Im doing the best I can here.
If i were a betting man, I would guess the BM3 45-70 load several thousand psi above the lighter Varget load. Well above 21,000 anyway. The BlackMag site suggests the powder works well in .45 and .50 caliber rifles with 400+ grain projectiles with charges of 100 to 120 grains[
]by volume. DON'T DO THAT IN .45 CAL. UNTIL MORE IS KNOWN.
Being BM3 is of the same class of powder as pinnacle, I made a make shift calculation using hpmuzzling.com's conversion table to calculate the volume of the charge inmagkor's 45-70 load. The answer? Approximately 80 grains by Volume. The heaviest muzzleloading bullets for 45 cal. i know of are 360 grains. But if I were asked to guess the pressure of 80 grains (volume) of BM3 and a 360 grain projectile in a .45 caliber muzzleloader I would suggest over 22,000 psi. I don't know how much over. But only GODknows how high the pressure would go if one would put 120 grains of BM3 and a 360 grain conical in a .45 caliber muzzleloader.
I emailed the Magkor folks a couple of weeks ago about the excerpt below which is in their FAQ:
The above is just an example. We have found that Black Mag’3® also yields exceptional performance with powder charges from 100 to 120-grain in rifles of .45 to .50 calibers. In fact, because of its unique burning characteristics, charges in this range will yield higher velocities with heavy bullets in the 400 grain range.
I told them my concerns. I received an email saying that my concerns were being forwarded to another department and would be contacted later. I've not heard from them yet.
Just wanted to caution against usinghigh volume loads in .45 cal. until more is known.
Happy Hunting, Phil
A note of caution. I compared their (Magkor's)45-70 load with other loads at hodgdon's website. I was amazed to find that BM3 is producing results I thought were comparable to Varget. For example, 50 grains (by weight)Varget propelled a 405 grain bullet to 1718 fps at CUP 20,900 and energy of 2630 ft-lbs. 65 grains of BM3 (by weight) propells a 435 grain bullet to 1864 fps and energy of 3325 ft-lbs. The BM3 load has 26% more energy using 30% more powder. These two powders are similar in their performance, not exact mind you, but Magkor doesn't publish pressures and Im doing the best I can here.
If i were a betting man, I would guess the BM3 45-70 load several thousand psi above the lighter Varget load. Well above 21,000 anyway. The BlackMag site suggests the powder works well in .45 and .50 caliber rifles with 400+ grain projectiles with charges of 100 to 120 grains[
]by volume. DON'T DO THAT IN .45 CAL. UNTIL MORE IS KNOWN. Being BM3 is of the same class of powder as pinnacle, I made a make shift calculation using hpmuzzling.com's conversion table to calculate the volume of the charge inmagkor's 45-70 load. The answer? Approximately 80 grains by Volume. The heaviest muzzleloading bullets for 45 cal. i know of are 360 grains. But if I were asked to guess the pressure of 80 grains (volume) of BM3 and a 360 grain projectile in a .45 caliber muzzleloader I would suggest over 22,000 psi. I don't know how much over. But only GODknows how high the pressure would go if one would put 120 grains of BM3 and a 360 grain conical in a .45 caliber muzzleloader.
I emailed the Magkor folks a couple of weeks ago about the excerpt below which is in their FAQ:
The above is just an example. We have found that Black Mag’3® also yields exceptional performance with powder charges from 100 to 120-grain in rifles of .45 to .50 calibers. In fact, because of its unique burning characteristics, charges in this range will yield higher velocities with heavy bullets in the 400 grain range.
I told them my concerns. I received an email saying that my concerns were being forwarded to another department and would be contacted later. I've not heard from them yet.
Just wanted to caution against usinghigh volume loads in .45 cal. until more is known.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-11-2006, 02:39 PM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 771
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
After having shot about 10 pounds of Black Mag'3, would say that you should reduce your loading data by about 20%.
120gr BM'3 would be MAX Load for 50 caliber rifles rated for 150gr loose FFG Black Powder/Pyrodex.
Thus, 120gr BM'3 would be way over any max loading data for any 45 cal rifle that I am aware of. They only .45 I have is a T/C Hawken.
I would also suggest not weighing charges for muzzleloadinguntil you have verified by volume first with the above loading data reduction and then use the scale to fine tune the load by consistant weight.
Black Mag'3 stands as one of my most favoritepowder along with7773FGand Swiss 3FG BP.
The same load reduction caution applies to 777 3FG in which you reduce your loading data by 15%.
Also BTW, Hodgdon Max load recommendation for 777is 100 grains Maximum FFG or FFFG.
Also, in 50 caliber or larger you should reduce loading data by 10% if shooting 3FG powders. Typically loading data for 50+ calibers is for 2FG.
Tahquamenon
120gr BM'3 would be MAX Load for 50 caliber rifles rated for 150gr loose FFG Black Powder/Pyrodex.
Thus, 120gr BM'3 would be way over any max loading data for any 45 cal rifle that I am aware of. They only .45 I have is a T/C Hawken.
I would also suggest not weighing charges for muzzleloadinguntil you have verified by volume first with the above loading data reduction and then use the scale to fine tune the load by consistant weight.
Black Mag'3 stands as one of my most favoritepowder along with7773FGand Swiss 3FG BP.
The same load reduction caution applies to 777 3FG in which you reduce your loading data by 15%.
Also BTW, Hodgdon Max load recommendation for 777is 100 grains Maximum FFG or FFFG.
Also, in 50 caliber or larger you should reduce loading data by 10% if shooting 3FG powders. Typically loading data for 50+ calibers is for 2FG.
Tahquamenon
01-11-2006, 02:51 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Tahquamenon wrote
I would also suggest not weighing charges for muzzleloadinguntil you have verified by volume first with the above loading data reduction and then use the scale to fine tune the load by consistant weight.
Thank you, Tahquamenon, for making this point. I would not want anyone to use the weight conversion I used.
Mostly, I wanted people to understand that a very moderate BM3 charge, coupled with a heavy bullet,could possibly be a dangerous situation in a 45 caliber muzzleloader.
I'mgonna get some BM3 now that I am hearing it is as good as Magkor claims.
Happy Hunting, Phil
I would also suggest not weighing charges for muzzleloadinguntil you have verified by volume first with the above loading data reduction and then use the scale to fine tune the load by consistant weight.
Thank you, Tahquamenon, for making this point. I would not want anyone to use the weight conversion I used.
Mostly, I wanted people to understand that a very moderate BM3 charge, coupled with a heavy bullet,could possibly be a dangerous situation in a 45 caliber muzzleloader.
I'mgonna get some BM3 now that I am hearing it is as good as Magkor claims.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-11-2006, 03:12 PM
#4
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 771
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Typically it's the moderate charges that shoot the best anyhow.
Optimizing by weight is fine if first weighed by volume. Every powder measure volume throw is slightly different no matter how much you try to measure the same. Not that I think it really makes that much difference if any at all. What a couple of grains?
Nevertheless, as if I had nothing else to fiddle around with...
This year I am going to start tinkering with a new digital scale that Santa brought meto consistant optimizemy already measured volume loads.
Something else to fiddle with. I find that I typically throw about 1-3 grains difference by volume when verified by the scale. Which honestly does not makethat much difference in 50 caliber and even less in 54 or 58.
But it's something else for me to fiddle with. Then you will be seeing post loads such as 93 grains and such!
Optimizing volume loads by scale might be of benefit in the smaller calibers of say .45 on down to .32. I have a new .36 cal pistol that I think the scale will really shine out the best loads.
Well see!
Tahquamenon
Optimizing by weight is fine if first weighed by volume. Every powder measure volume throw is slightly different no matter how much you try to measure the same. Not that I think it really makes that much difference if any at all. What a couple of grains?
Nevertheless, as if I had nothing else to fiddle around with...
This year I am going to start tinkering with a new digital scale that Santa brought meto consistant optimizemy already measured volume loads.
Something else to fiddle with. I find that I typically throw about 1-3 grains difference by volume when verified by the scale. Which honestly does not makethat much difference in 50 caliber and even less in 54 or 58.
But it's something else for me to fiddle with. Then you will be seeing post loads such as 93 grains and such!
Optimizing volume loads by scale might be of benefit in the smaller calibers of say .45 on down to .32. I have a new .36 cal pistol that I think the scale will really shine out the best loads.
Well see!
Tahquamenon
01-11-2006, 03:29 PM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Tahquamenon
I have found somewhat of a problem in weights. Each lot of powder is not exactly the same given weight for the same charge. + even in the can depending where you are at in the can you can get different weights from the to to the bottom. These are normally very insignificant but they do exist. I have found that old powder gets to be somewhat heavier than new - no matter how hard I try to keep the moisture out. Again insignificant but it is there. It multiplies when you go from 2f to 3f...
Just a point for thought.
I have found somewhat of a problem in weights. Each lot of powder is not exactly the same given weight for the same charge. + even in the can depending where you are at in the can you can get different weights from the to to the bottom. These are normally very insignificant but they do exist. I have found that old powder gets to be somewhat heavier than new - no matter how hard I try to keep the moisture out. Again insignificant but it is there. It multiplies when you go from 2f to 3f...
Just a point for thought.
01-11-2006, 04:49 PM
#6
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
Tahq-
If this powder comes in 2f and 3f.. which is better? I finally found someone making a trip near a store that sells it and they PROMISED they would get me a couple pounds of it...
thanks
If this powder comes in 2f and 3f.. which is better? I finally found someone making a trip near a store that sells it and they PROMISED they would get me a couple pounds of it...
thanks
01-11-2006, 05:14 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
cayugad,
The 3 in BlackMag3 means 3f, I think. They do not make 2 granulations to my knowledge. This powder burns much slower than black powder and I think it comes only in a finer granulation in order to facilitate ignition. Pinnacle which comes in two granulations 2f and 3f is giving some problems in the 2f granulations, in that, it may misfire and is more difficult to meter from a flask. I have heard the same thing of American Pioneer. Of the three, I have only used Pinnacle, with good results, in 3f granulation.
These three powders, as it has been explained to me, are similar in chemical formulation.
Happy Hunting, Phil
The 3 in BlackMag3 means 3f, I think. They do not make 2 granulations to my knowledge. This powder burns much slower than black powder and I think it comes only in a finer granulation in order to facilitate ignition. Pinnacle which comes in two granulations 2f and 3f is giving some problems in the 2f granulations, in that, it may misfire and is more difficult to meter from a flask. I have heard the same thing of American Pioneer. Of the three, I have only used Pinnacle, with good results, in 3f granulation.
These three powders, as it has been explained to me, are similar in chemical formulation.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-11-2006, 05:33 PM
#8
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
That would make sense.. Well then I will jus tell them to grab up some Black Mag 3 and not worry about the grain size. I am also going to have them get me a couple pounds of Triple Se7en in 3f and some more American Pioneer Powder in 3f. I have to call the store for them tomorrow to make sure it is in stock so they don't waste the trip.
I've shot a lot of Pinnacle 3f and I really like the powder. Actually it is one of my favorite powders in shooting light sabots. I have not had good luck shooting heavy sabots or conicals with it. Also it does a real good job shooting roundball of all thing out of my traditional rifles.
I've shot a lot of Pinnacle 3f and I really like the powder. Actually it is one of my favorite powders in shooting light sabots. I have not had good luck shooting heavy sabots or conicals with it. Also it does a real good job shooting roundball of all thing out of my traditional rifles.
01-11-2006, 06:03 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
cayugad
pglasgow is correct BM3 is all they make the 2 went away along time ago. You have probably already been there, but here is the address. When you find out what is the cost /lb... I know, I know -if you have to ask the price - you can not afford it...
http://magkor.com/index.html
pglasgow is correct BM3 is all they make the 2 went away along time ago. You have probably already been there, but here is the address. When you find out what is the cost /lb... I know, I know -if you have to ask the price - you can not afford it...
http://magkor.com/index.html
01-12-2006, 06:57 AM
#10
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 771
RE: A note of caution using Black Mag 3 in 45 cal ML's
I also agree about powders getting heavier. To prevent moisture absorbtion, I store my powders inside sealing ammunition cans and also inside the cans I keep Hydrosorbent Silica packs to absorb moisture. I have yet to have a powder go south because of moisture and I have a few powders that are fairly old.
As noted Black Mag'3 is a 3FG powder.
As noted Black Mag'3 is a 3FG powder.